Filing crosscut saws

[Cherryville Chuck]

I have an old Disston and I've picked up three more old 26" 8 point crosscut saws at auctions recently so I thought I'd give a try to filing them. I got the right size file from LV, a double slim I think it is and I made a jig to hold the saw in my end vise. Something that long doesn't go very deep into the vise so I also had to use some clamps to keep the jig tight to the saw and eliminate any chatter. The American crosscut pattern is a 65 degree angle forward with a vertical rake. 8 Point is easy to mark the jig for as every tooth is an eighth of an inch from the next and last. That means every like tooth is 1/4" apart so I marked the tops of the jig with 65* lines 1/4 inch apart to aid in identifying teeth and as a guide for keeping the file at the right angle. I've sharpened two of the saws so far and they are cutting pretty good. The first picture shows the jig halves and the two saws I sharpened plus the file (with a section of 1/2" dowel for a handle) and an old Great Neck 770 saw set. The second photo shows the jig and a saw installed in my end vise.

[Herb Stoops]

You made yourself some money at the prices of hand sharpening these days.
https://www.kennebecsaws.com/four-problems
I always liked hand sharpened over machine sharpened. Seems as though there was always one tooth that wanted to grab when machine sharpened. But hand sharpened ,just cut so smooth. Also like your jig.
HErb

[Cherryville Chuck]

You made yourself some money at the prices of hand sharpening these days.
https://www.kennebecsaws.com/four-problems
I always liked hand sharpened over machine sharpened. Seems as though there was always one tooth that wanted to grab when machine sharpened. But hand sharpened ,just cut so smooth. Also like your jig.
HErb

Yikes. I had no idea it had gotten that expensive. I didn't joint them first. Maybe next time. This time I wanted to practice holding the file right and get the angle correct which the guide lines make much easier.The first saw had a slight negative rake like that saw shop said a crosscut should have. The 2nd saw was closer to vertical. The negative rake does seem to cut a little better.

Two of the saws came in an auction lot with a Slack Sellars and Co steel spined backsaw made from Sheffield cast steel. All I can find out about the company is that they operated from sometime in the 1800s I think to around the 50s. The saw is in great shape but can use a sharpening so the crosscut saws are a warmup to that job. I will joint it first and file it for ripping. It's a 15 point. I've watched 2 good videos on filing that type saw, one by Garrett Hack and the other by Paul Sellars. I see that shop wants up to $150 to file it. I was lucky and got all 3 saws for $5 at the auction. Apparently learning to file my own saws is a skill worth developing.

[Herb Stoops]

15 pt. for a rip saw?? I always heard that rip saws had fewer teeth like 7pt. so as to not plug up with the long,with the grain, shavings that they create, and every 3 tooth is a raker, straight across filed,1 right,2 left, 3 raker, I can't remember if they have no set, or not. I was thinking not.
Herb

[Stick486]

15 pt. for a rip saw?? I always heard that rip saws had fewer teeth like 7pt. so as to not plug up with the long,with the grain, shavings that they create, and every 3 tooth is a raker, straight across filed,1 right,2 left, 3 raker, I can't remember if they have no set, or not. I was thinking not.
Herb

That's not a written in stone deal, it's not so much the tooth count as it is the tooth profile... Tooth counts can widely vary w/ either saw profile...
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[Herb Stoops]

Thanks Stick, but 15pt.s is still too fine for a rip ,in my opinion.
HErb

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/09 ... t-handsaws

[Cherryville Chuck]

Pictured is the saw in question Herb. Since it will be primarily used as a tenon/ dovetail saw it will be cutting with grain then it needs to filed for ripping. Just now was the first chance I’ve had to look at it with my swing arm magnifier lamp and it looks to already be filed that way.

As for lumber ripping saws, all the ones I remember seeing in the past were 5 1/2 points. Seems to me most were a little longer than the standard 26” for crosscutting.

I’ll still have an issue with setting the teeth. My set goes to 12 point. Paul Sellers used a nail set in the one video I watched. He just sat it on a tooth and gave it a gentle tap with a hammer and that worked just fine in the video. That may be what I have to try.

[Herb Stoops]

I wasn't thinking of a panel saw, when you said "Rip" your right those are finer toothed and are sharpened to do both. I never have heard of anyone hand sharpening those, but they must have years ago. it would take a small file, I think if I were to use them much, I would spring for a shop to grind them. a sharp one will last a long time, because it doesn't get as much use as the carpenter saws.
5 1/2 tooth was what I was trying to think of on the carpenter rip saws.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

Here are a bunch of videos of Sellers performing various functions on saws getting them back in shape and not quite down to the middle of the page is the video I've watched where he completely files off the teeth on an old back saw and re-cuts new teeth on it. It's a really interesting video to watch if you have a half hour to spare. How well it cuts at the end is amazing. If I were going to go that far I would make my saw a 16 point because that makes it easier to mark out a gauge or go with 2 millimeter spacing which would make it just slightly finer than 12 point. https://paulsellers.com/knowledge-base/ ... rbishment/

[Cherryville Chuck]

I found an excellent article on sharpening saws. I don't think there is much they don't cover or at least give links to. https://www.blackburntools.com/articles ... index.html Lots of diagrams included. Anyone thinking about sharpening their own saws, this is a good place to start.

[Biagio]

Hey Charles,
The Blackburn article you posted stirred an old memory. Some 45 years ago, I bought a saw sharpening tool made by a Sheffield company James Neil, under the Eclipse brand, which is still going. I used it a few times, then got lazy and sent my rip and cross-cut saws out, but I must say the results when I did it were marginally better. At the same time, I bought a Japanese Zomax saw set, a knock-off of yours.
I then moved to power tools with carbide blades (working with particle board and mdf), and have subsequently moved to Japanese saws for hand sawing. I have kept my Nicholson rip saw and Disston cross-cut saws, for reasons anybody on this forum would understand.
Anyway, the jig was quite well thought out: as you can see from the photos, there are adjustments for rake and fleam, as well as a hardened steel adjustable depth stop, to get even-sized teeth.
I was always a little dubious about the anvil angle on the Zomax - Japanese tools had not yet come into their own at that time.

The tools were relatively expensive for the day - the original price stickers are still visible. We had real currency in those days - a Rand was worth 2 US$. Now 1 US$ is almost 16 Rands. The 26" 5 1/2 point Nicholson cost about 12 Rands, the Disston (made by Sandvik) was 8,50 Rands. Oh well, dreams of the incipiently senile - we will never see those days again.

[Herb Stoops]

Has anyone ever run across a hand saw that was so hardened that the teeth would break off when you tried to set it? My Dad had one of those when I was young. He used a saw set similar to the one Biagio shows. Back in those days the saw shops had hand filer to sharpen the saws, it was before the sharpening machines were popular.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

I have one saw that has a couple teeth missing and that might be why Herb. The last saw I sharpened a couple of nights ago was making odd noises on some teeth when I set it. I wondered if I was stressing them. None broke off and I did have it set for the proper tooth count.

Biagio, my set might just be a Zomax. It says made in Japan on. Maybe it was sold as a Great Neck 770 and Great Neck just rebranded it. I haven't seen a file holder like that for triangular files but they are common for chain saw files here. It would be helpful for estimating the proper rake angle. Lee Valley sells a tool that clamps onto the tail end of the file and has wings which can be set to angles for rake. It costs in the mid 50 dollar range here. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... ile-holder

I purchased the file for filing Japanese pull saws back about 15-20 years ago https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... edge-files . I've tried it a few times including last night. Like you said, I can improve the cutting action some. This time I tried pulling the file through instead of pushing and that worked a little better or at least easier. Recently on ebay I've seen diamond coated files of this type with 200 grit equivalent. They are of course Chinese. That got me thinking about the difficulty I've had in trying to file these saws and I remembered that the teeth are hardened, probably after they sharpen and set the teeth. That means the teeth are almost as hard as the file is. I may still order one of the diamond coated files and see if that makes a difference in how sharp I can get one. I just wish they were closer to 600 grit.

[Biagio]

I guess the main difference between the Eclipse and LV jigs, is theat the Eclipse has grooves which sit over the saw blade to maintain the fleam angle (although only two angles are available, one for rip and one for cross-cut), and in so doing, also maintain the slope, constant to the cutting edge of the saw.
The LV jig relies on the user's visual estimate of parallel-ness (if there is such a word) and horizontality. Neither of these are strong points with me - my three dimensional orientation in space has caused numerous irritating issues, in cutting, planing, etc. I need all the help from jigs I can get.

[Biagio]

I guess the main difference between the Eclipse and LV jigs, is that the Eclipse has grooves which sit over the saw blade to maintain the fleam angle (although only two angles are available, one for rip and one for cross-cut), and in so doing, also maintain the slope, constant to the cutting edge of the saw.
The LV jig relies on the user's visual estimate of parallel-ness (if there is such a word) and horizontality. Neither of these are strong points with me - my three- dimensional orientation in space has caused numerous irritating issues, in cutting, planing, etc. I need all the help from jigs I can get, especially with a task performed once in a blue moon.

I have seen locally the chain-saw jigs you mention, but opted for an attachment for my Dremel - works on the same parallel principle as the LV jig, horizontality seems to be less of an issue, and the Dremel sure cuts down on the tedium. Interestingly, locally to have a chain sharpened is not much less than buying a replacement Oregon chain - although I am not sure for how much longer (blasted exchange rate).

[Cherryville Chuck]

I spent about 25 years making a living with a chain saw, falling trees and bucking them (removing limbs and cutting into lengths that fit on a truck). You don't have the option to use a machine to do it with in a commercial setting and no power available. I've probably sharpened saw chain 10,000 times or more and gone though at the very least a 1000 feet of saw chain. You get good at it in a short time and I've had the dremel type for my wife and son to use. (My wife had her own Stihl 026 50cc at one time, son has an 044 Stihl.) The dremel doesn't sharpen to the same edge as a file does but it is quicker to remove major tooth damage. One of my wife's uncles ran a saw shop here years ago and they would use a dremel to get rid of major tooth damage when someone brought a saw in for them to fix but he'd use a file to give it a few quick strokes to finish the job.

You're right about the shortcomings of those jigs but I would say it's a case of better than nothing. The lines I drew across my jig have certainly helped me in keeping the fleam angle close to correct. Every so often I start to wander, especially just before I have to move to get lined up with another group of teeth. If I was adding slope I would rip the top of my blade holding jigs to that angle and that would make it easier to keep the slope consistent.

[Cherryville Chuck]

I got around to sharpening the old tenon/dove tail saw I picked up. I decided to try Paul Sellars hybrid method. Since tenon and dovetail saws are cutting with the grain they should be filed with little or no rake. Paul however files the first inch with about a negative 30 rake like a crosscut would be, then the next inch is filed at about a negative 15 rake, and the next inch is filed very close to no rake and after that as close to vertical as possible.

Paul's reasoning behind this method is that the high negative rake at the tip makes the saw easy to start the cut with and makes it less likely to bite in or skate around. As the stroke progresses and you build up some momentum it cuts more aggressively. I have to say that his theory is pretty sound. The piece of wood in the picture is 1/2" thick dry birch and the two saw cuts were each 5 saw strokes. The lines on the board are 1" apart.

I did joint the teeth with a flat file first and they definitely needed jointing. Plus when I was done I filled a little bit of a micro bevel on the teeth with an Eze-Lap diamond paddle as Paul suggested. If you're wondering about that step the best is to watch Paul do it on his Youtube channel.

[Herb Stoops]

I wouldn't even attempt that anymore,as my eyesight is not that good.
but it looks like you have got the hang of it.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

It was easier than you think Herb. Filing for rip teeth is something you can judge pretty easy because it's straight across and every tooth is the same so no doing every other tooth like for a crosscut fleam filed tooth pattern. If you miss any you can see a difference in the way light shines off them. I did have a swing arm lamp directly over the blade about 12" up and without that extra light I would have had trouble doing it too.

As for the changing rake angle that isn't that hard either. For crosscuts and the first inch of this type rip pattern the back of the file stays dead flat. For this rip pattern you just angle forward a bit for the next inch. For the rest the edge of the file is vertical which isn't hard to judge either and none of it needs to be precisely the same every tooth. A couple degrees doesn't make much of a difference. I'm pruning fruit trees right now and the pruning saw I'm using has variable pitch, variable rake, and different gullet depths on purpose.

As for filing crosscuts where you do every other tooth, I noticed early on that the teeth facing away from you look different and after filing one of the old 26" 8 tooth Nicholsons I could see them easily. As long as I had really good light.

[Herb Stoops]

Iused to file my own handsaws and circular sawstwice then send them in the third time to get them straightened up. At that time I didn't have the money to send them to the saw shop everytime. Then the companies started sending them in and it became part of the union agreement.
Of course when I was working in the woods I filed my own chainsaw chains. And several times a day if the saw happened to touch the dirt. We always used the Oregon brand chains. The gear drive saws could go longer than the direct drive it seemed.
Herb

[Herb Stoops]

Another thought before chainsaws, we always filed our long crosscut saws. Usually at night for the next day, we used a flat file for those we carried in the lunch box.. 4 alternate bevel and then a raker,and repeat, if I remember correctly.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

You probably worked with high leads. Everything when I started was drug to the landing with a skidder . In the summer that meant through dirt and gravel and if it rained the surface of the ground turned into a slurry. I worked quite a bit of my logging career as a bucker so on bad days I might sharpen a couple dozen times a day. In the winter after a snow or two everything would have a layer of ice on it so only a few times a day then. When I worked as a faller usually only once or twice a day.

I always used Oregon chain too and usually Oregon bars but for a while Japanese Tsumura bars were popular. Then their roller tips started failing after 3-4 weeks and everyone quit using them. I missed the crosscut era thankfully.