New handle for old crosscut

[Cherryville Chuck]

I picked this up last year. Cleaned as much rust off as I could and got around to sharpening it. My neighbor gifted me an early 1900s jointing/raker gauge tool that was made in Seattle which helped. The saw was pitted pretty good so there is no practical way to get it back to new user condition.

It didn’t have a handle so I made one from cherry I have. My first try at that and it went reasonably well. Cutting the slot for the saw plate was the hardest part. I did it with a jig and handsaw. It’s not perfect but it is good enough. I used Euro knock down bolts to fasten handle to saw.

I just need a log to try it on now. I have to see if the teeth need setting yet too.

[Stick486]

Nice job Charles.....

[Herb Stoops]

I can relate to that kind of saw, I spent many hours on both ends of one in my youth.
Kind of expensive bolts.
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/saw ... -caps.aspx
Nice job on wooden handle. I have made a few, fun to make.
Herb

[honesttjohn]

My grandfather had one of those - and used it.

[Cherryville Chuck]

I can relate to that kind of saw, I spent many hours on both ends of one in my youth.
Kind of expensive bolts.
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/saw ... -caps.aspx
Nice job on wooden handle. I have made a few, fun to make.
Herb

I don't think any more expensive than a set of saw bolts. If you've priced Chicago bolts they aren't cheap either. The 4 of those were $5.25. I did spend some time modifying them. The shortest ones were still quite a bit too long so I had to shorten both pieces. Plus the male part is 6 x 1.25 which is not standard which makes a die to lengthen the thread rare and expensive. The other issue I had was that the holes were gouged out a bit and elongated so I ground with a dremel and chain saw file until the new bolts fit nicely.

Just out of curiosity Herb, do you know how much set was put on the teeth? I picked up an old Galt tooth setter in a tool lot but I haven't tried using it yet.

[Stick486]

I don't think any more expensive than a set of saw bolts.

Use sex bolts....
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image.png

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Just out of curiosity Herb, do you know how much set was put on the teeth?

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2020/04 ... saws-1922/

[Herb Stoops]

Chuck,my grandpa and Dad used to clamp the saw in a vise and use a small ball peen hammer and small steel anvil to set the teeth before they filed them. Our saws were not the type you show, I read that yours was typical of the southern European the North American ones were of the 4 teeth, space, raker,space, repeat. with no bridge connecting the teeth.
the anvil was hand held and the top was filed on a slight bevel to form the set on the tooth. After one side of the saw was set then the saw blade was turned around and the other side was set. Then they filed the teeth sharp. They filed the rakers last as they were filed straight across, not on an angle like the teeth.

[Cherryville Chuck]

Chuck,my grandpa and Dad used to clamp the saw in a vise and use a small ball peen hammer and small steel anvil to set the teeth before they filed them. Our saws were not the type you show, I read that yours was typical of the southern European the North American ones were of the 4 teeth, space, raker,space, repeat. with no bridge connecting the teeth.
the anvil was hand held and the top was filed on a slight bevel to form the set on the tooth. After one side of the saw was set then the saw blade was turned around and the other side was set. Then they filed the teeth sharp. They filed the rakers last as they were filed straight across, not on an angle like the teeth.

I did a quick scan of Stick's link and all I caught was that the set might need to be increased in pitchy wood. It didn't give an actual number like you see for setting carpentry saws. I found a few articles on crosscut tooth types and this one is known as a "pierced lance pattern". There was also just the lance pattern without the holes pierced at the base of the teeth. It is supposed to best for softwoods. The two tooth/raker/two tooth type was best for hardwoods I think. One was referred to as a Champion style tooth, that one might have been it.

I had found a couple youtube videos of how to sharpen and some written articles. I joined an FB group dedicated to old crosscuts too but most of those guys are way more serious about it than I will ever be. Most of what they talk about is over my head still. I learned that the rakers are supposed to be about 12 thou lower than the teeth. I jointed rakers and teeth down to level and then bent the tips of the rakers over as all the instructions I had read/seen said to do using a heavy pin punch. That should put them close to the right height.

I do have a setting tool I got from a gal around my age that had belonged to her dad. He had worked for Weyerhaeuser somewhere between me and you. I got a regular saw set from her too so maybe he did some filing. I'll have to dig it out and see if I can figure out how it works.

[Cherryville Chuck]

I don't think any more expensive than a set of saw bolts.

Use sex bolts....
.

image.png

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Just out of curiosity Herb, do you know how much set was put on the teeth?

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2020/04 ... saws-1922/

They price out a little higher than what I used but I might be able to find some I wouldn't have to modify. Problem is that the only source I could find was amazon.ca and they must be made in China and the seller didn't include a dimensions illustration so that you know for sure what you're buying.

The filing link had some handy info in it. I'll have to dig out the filing gauge the neighbor gave me and see how it compares to the two in that article.Using it to joint the teeth was obvious but I didn't figure out yet how to use it for the rakers.

[Herb Stoops]

From the experience I can remember,Gramps and My Dad didn't use any measuring tools or science that I can remember . sometimes they sharpened the saws in the field by turning them tooth side up in a cut in the log and moving them along to sharpen, while sitting on a block of wood they had just cut off.. I remember they tapped the tooth with the butt end of the wooden file handle to remove the bur. I don't recall any setting tool such as the squeeze type that was used on carpenter saws.they were hammer and punch or anvil on the back side of tooth to form the tooth over. No science, just experience of what they thought was enough. The blades were too thick to use a hand held, unless it had long handles like a pruning shear so both hands could be used.
HErb

[Cherryville Chuck]

From the experience I can remember,Gramps and My Dad didn't use any measuring tools or science that I can remember . sometimes they sharpened the saws in the field by turning them tooth side up in a cut in the log and moving them along to sharpen, while sitting on a block of wood they had just cut off.. I remember they tapped the tooth with the butt end of the wooden file handle to remove the bur. I don't recall any setting tool such as the squeeze type that was used on carpenter saws.they were hammer and punch or anvil on the back side of tooth to form the tooth over. No science, just experience of what they thought was enough. The blades were too thick to use a hand held, unless it had long handles like a pruning shear so both hands could be used.
HErb

Stick's link showed setting with anvils that had a sloped section and how much tooth to hang over the edge when you hammered them so that seems to be the time honoured method. I'll bet you could just lay the saw down on a stump and whack every other tooth with a hammer and then flip it and do it again and you'd be close to enough set that way. I've seen Paul Sellars set a backsaw with a nail set and hammer that way. I didn't get a chance to check my set out yesterday. Maybe today.

On the saw restorers FB site one guy was telling another new member that filing should be done by an expert and Stick's link said the same thing but old time loggers needed a sharp saw and they needed it sharp right then, right there. Maybe they took then to a professional occasionally to get them back to factory spec but I wouldn't even bet on that.

Since we are talking about filing, I've been touching up some of my utility circular saw blades lately too. I clamp them in my end vise and sharpen a few teeth at a time using a thin diamond hone. It isn't perfect but it's good enough for basic ripping and crosscutting. If it's a cheap blade it isn't worth sending out so you have nothing to lose by trying it. I've also used a 3" diamond wheel in a drill but it's a little trickier getting both angles right. If you can it does a better job.

[Herb Stoops]

My gramps was a millwright in a the Anderson Middleton sawmill in Aberdeen ,WA and one of his jobs was to hammer the circular saws so that they ran straight,without wobble. Now that is a forgotten art.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

My gramps was a millwright in a the Anderson Middleton sawmill in Aberdeen ,WA and one of his jobs was to hammer the circular saws so that they ran straight,without wobble. Now that is a forgotten art.
Herb

I remember taking a saw to get sharpened in Vernon back in the 70s. There was an old timer doing exactly that while I was dropping my saw off. He had a cross peen and a straight edge and he would sweep the straight edge across the circular saw (48-52" diameter) and wherever he would find a high spot would get a few strokes until the straight edge didn't rock on that spot. At the time there were quite a few small sawmills around this country. He retired a couple of years later and the small mills began vanishing at the same time. I don't know if there is anyone left who knows that trade anymore.I don't know if there are any of those old circular saws still in service. With new teeth they took a 3/8" kerf which they see as wasting a lot of wood these days. All have gone to thinner saws with less kerf and utilize saw guides and blade coolant/lube so that they can use thinner saws and make more accurate cuts with less waste going through the planer too.

I worked on some of those old portable mills years ago before they all disappeared. Once in a while a thin strip of wood would get caught between the saw and the cover for the arbor and drive belts and pulleys. The saw would get hot pretty quick with that much friction and it was amazing to see how much wobble a 52" blade could develop. It could be as much as a 4" swing from one extreme to the other. Scary as hell when it happened. Sawyers were always mentally prepared to scramble for the clutch lever if something like that happened.

[Herb Stoops]

yes the old "BelSaw" portable mills were popular during that time period, we had one set up on the folks property. It had a 48" dia. circular saw with the replaceable teeth.
If the logs were larger in dia. than a 24" cut, the log had to be slabbed then rolled over slabbed again, repeated til a 24" cant could be cut.

The "Woodmiser" type band saw mills that replaced the old circular saws could cut up to 48" cants in one pass.


Here is a picture of jointing a carpenters handsaw I ran across.

Saw sharp.png

HErb

[Biagio]

@Cherryville Chuck , I happened to watch a YouTube video on vintage handsaws and the nib on the fore part of the back of the blade. Do any of yours have it, and have you figured out what it was for?

[Stick486]

@Cherryville Chuck , I happened to watch a YouTube video on vintage handsaws and the nib on the fore part of the back of the blade. Do any of yours have it, and have you figured out what it was for?

The nib is the bump on the back of many older saws, near the toe. It serves no purpose other than decoration.

but...
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NIB NOTCH.pdf

[Herb Stoops]

I was always taught the "nib" was to break the corner to start the cut. Also to clean the grime from under your fingernails, cut the tape to open boxes,score oranges to start the peeling,to scratch your back,to make a notch in the corner to put a string line knot into,to cut a chunk off a tobbaco plug,and other important uses.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

@Cherryville Chuck , I happened to watch a YouTube video on vintage handsaws and the nib on the fore part of the back of the blade. Do any of yours have it, and have you figured out what it was for?

Yes, I have an 1896-1917 Disston D7 that has it. I have a D8 from the same era but I don't recall it having a nib. Like Herb, I had always heard that it was to make a notch for starting a cut since saws have a tendency to jump around a bit trying to get a cut started. Lately I've read that it was just for decoration like Stick says. I should try the nib and see if it will help start a cut. I cleaned, refinished, and sharpened it but I only ever tried it the normal way.

[Cherryville Chuck]

The nib is the bump on the back of many older saws, near the toe. It serves no purpose other than decoration.

but...
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NIB NOTCH.pdf
[/quote]

I'm a bit skeptical of what that article says. The nib is round which means it would likely just ride over the sawdust rather than remove it. On the 4' crosscut I've been restoring I was instructed to take the rakers and bend the tips over slightly to form hooks. This would help shear the fibers between the slices that the teeth make, but it would also help roll the sawdust into the gullets.

[Cherryville Chuck]

I've been working on trying to put some set on the teeth of this crosscut. No luck so far.

- Tried the set I have. You were right Herb, the plate is too stiff for it to bend it.

- Tried hammering the teeth as per articles I've read. I set a strip of steel down on my bench and hung the sharpened part of the teeth over the edge as the instructions have shown to do. An auto body hammer wouldn't do it so I tried a 2lb cross peen. It didn't either. The blade needs to be clamped down because it just lifts the back when you hit the teeth.

- Tried hitting on the teeth using a blunt nosed punch and the 2lb peen. Same issue. It just lifts the back.

I have an idea that should work. I need to get two stiff strips of steel that I can sandwich the blade between. I can mill a slope on the end of one that the sharpened portion of the tooth will sit over. On the other side I'll drill and tap a bolt hole. Tightening the bolt down on the tooth should bend it over to match the slope on the other side of the jig. I just need to find some steel first.

[Herb Stoops]

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=Settin ... _iQixWWVeY

Chuck, sure looks like he had a small section of the steel base plate slightly beveled to hammer the set into the tooth.
If I remember right my dad and gramps used a handheld anvil with a corner formed by filing off the sharp top edge, a slug of iron weighing around 3 lbs.
In the beginning of the video,it showed some long handled setting crimpers hanging on wall above the windows.

Notice too he hammered the saw to take out some kinks in the back.

Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=Settin ... _iQixWWVeY

Chuck, sure looks like he had a small section of the steel base plate slightly beveled to hammer the set into the tooth.
If I remember right my dad and gramps used a handheld anvil with a corner formed by filing off the sharp top edge, a slug of iron weighing around 3 lbs.
In the beginning of the video,it showed some long handled setting crimpers hanging on wall above the windows.

Notice too he hammered the saw to take out some kinks in the back.

Herb

He certainly knows what he's doing. I'm not set up to do like he is. I've been looking at some articles and videos on flattening but I'm not prepared to do it with the ones I have that are collector items. I do have an old rip saw to practice on that is beyond usabilty.

[Stick486]

A14.jpg

[Cherryville Chuck]

I've seen that picture before. Notice that they took two saws and welded them together? I can imagine the workout it would have been to fall that tree.

[Herb Stoops]

I think you are right, Chuck, probably more than one day and more than 2 people per day, plus a couple of loggers doing the undercut. It makes you think of how they transported it to the mill and the handling at the mill.
Where I grew up, on the Olympic Peninsula, Originally Pope and Talbot logged off the whole thing and then plotted 10 acre plots and sold them to the public. They left 1 big old growth tree per plot to reseed the area. All the stumps were left for the new owners to remove. That was a major undertaking too, before bulldozers. A lot of the land was cleared off for small farms, but hundreds of acres are still timber and have been logged several times since, and some of the original old growth trees are still standing.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

I think you are right, Chuck, probably more than one day and more than 2 people per day, plus a couple of loggers doing the undercut. It makes you think of how they transported it to the mill and the handling at the mill.
Where I grew up, on the Olympic Peninsula, Originally Pope and Talbot logged off the whole thing and then plotted 10 acre plots and sold them to the public. They left 1 big old growth tree per plot to reseed the area. All the stumps were left for the new owners to remove. That was a major undertaking too, before bulldozers. A lot of the land was cleared off for small farms, but hundreds of acres are still timber and have been logged several times since, and some of the original old growth trees are still standing.
Herb

Those old trees must be pretty impressive. I've seen some pretty impressive trees around here but they don't compare to the ones where you were. I felled an 8' cedar once and some large and tall Engelmann spruce on a forest fire, the largest of which was about 5' across and 200' tall. I only had a 28" bar on my saw so that took some thinking and a fair amount of sawing to get it down.

You are right about it taking teams to do. No man could be on the end of that saw all day. I've heard that they drilled holes in the biggest logs and blew them apart with blasting powder. P & T used to own some mills just over our side of the border. I know they owned the ones at Midway and Grand Forks and there may have been more. I think they sold them quite a few years ago now.

[Herb Stoops]

Yes, the Pope and Talbot mill here at Port Gamble is long gone, they closed it sometime in the 60's.
Yes I remember that they did use dynamite to split those big logs ,now that you mentioned it. They also had skid roads where they just pulled the logs on the ground with horse teams to the water where they could raft them up and float them to the mills. There was no railway here,every thing was towed with tugs.
Herb