cutting dead nuts angles

[smitty10101]

So SWMBO wants a hexagon shelf thingy----like a shadowbox hung on a wall.

using my DW715 miter saw & various drafting triangles I can get "close" to 30 degrees.
But close is no cigar. I'm cutting the angle(s) on the flat & not by tilting the blade so I can't use my angle cubes. The error is easily noticeable and I'm guessing a gap of 1/16-3/16 on the final match up. So I'm out about 1-2 degrees????

So for those of us who have attempted this what would you recommend to get dead nuts angles on the flat. Or should I just surrender & cut it with the blade tilted??
If I use the TS I have to hope for matching the lengths of the legs.

Plus an accurate angle device would help setting up the Lion trimmer. but again I run into getting the legs the same length.

I'm leaning for something like a 1-2-3 (2-3-4) setup block, but as a triangle. I've found a "precision" 45/90 degree but haven't found a 30/60/90.

Thoughts & recommendations???

TIA

smitty

[Herb Stoops]

Have you thought of the plastic drafting triangles, they are quite accurate? A new or resharpened blade might help some too, if there is any wobble or variation of teeth width a slight error could be doubled when you assemble.
I use the Miterset for setting the TS miter gauge and it makes a perfect angle every time. I have made 14 sided rings that come out perfect.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Miterset+for+ ... &ia=images

A set up block for the miter saw could be made on the TS .
Herb

[smitty10101]

I'm using drafting triangles---several in fact. Some from when I was in college 50+ yrs ago. My thoughts on any of the plastic measuring/layout tools is that --"if it's plastic how much accuracy could possibly be built into them"?

More to come later---need to go to the store with the BOSS.

[Stick486]

using my DW715 miter saw & various drafting triangles I can get "close" to 30 degrees.

go to the art store and get a 30/60/90 drafting triangle...

DRAFTING SQUARES.jpg

USING DRAFTING TRIANGLES.jpg

So for those of us who have attempted this what would you recommend to get dead nuts angles on the flat.

switch to the table saw for across the face...
router table for w/ the edge......

I run into getting the legs the same length.

cut and trim one for the money...
close cut the rest and use your trimmer to sneak up on the final...

after all this suspect your saw...

[Stick486]

"if it's plastic how much accuracy could possibly be built into them"?

dead nut when you have good ones...
don't like plastic???
go w/ metal...

[Stick486]

get a poly-gauge, which is accurate to 1/12° from Veritas...

poly-gauge.pdf

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[Herb Stoops]

I have found that SMS are fine for most work that doesn't need extreme accuracy, like framing rafters and such. But for fine furniture work they just have too many moving parts that make them not cut true every time. For example the sliding tracks,large diameter blades compound hinge, etc.
HErb

[smitty10101]

dead nut when you have good ones...
don't like plastic???
go w/ metal...

Have Charvos (sp?) from when in Mechanical Drawing. I'm pretty sure they're on the better side of things.
Have cheaper ones from arts & craft stores to compare to the Charvos.

Plastic---really just how accurate can mass-produced plastic from Asia be?

Been looking at metal---actually have one from----wait for it---El Salvador.
Probably need to upgrade that one.

Poly Gauge--- had forgotten that it was made. Been a long time since I was eyeballing the catalog. That is probably going to be the ticket.

Looking at something from Amazon called "angle gauge sets" but they appear to be made of very thin metal.

I have found that SMS are fine for most work that doesn't need extreme accuracy

Play in the miter saw--- probably correct even though it's not a slider. TS is probably a better choice.

[Stick486]

https://www.engineersupply.com/drafting-triangles.aspx

[tomp]

Having a little trouble understanding what you're trying to do; you mention a shadow box which to me means a frame with depth so cutting the angle on the long edge with the part vertical, but then you say cutting the parts flat without tilting the blade. I was making octagonal planters for a while, so 22-1/2° miters, cut with the part flat - my old saw doesn't have the tilt function. When I started the project, I took a fair bit of time to get the settings on the saw as close to perfect - blade at 90° to both the fence and table as well as adjusting so there was no heel either. I was fortunate that the detent on the saw appeared to give pretty close to perfect 22-1/2° miters, but still wound up with a very slight gap. The "easy" way to close up the gap is to glue the frame in two halves and then trim the exposed face by clamping the frame to a panel on the table saw and just kissing the overhanging points. Start with a piece of plywood a little wider than the half-frame and set the saw fence to cut a clean edge. Leave the plywood in place and set the frame so that the corner is even with the edge of the plywood and clamp in place. Running the assembly through the saw will give a half-frame with the end faces coplanar. Repeat for the second half-frame and you will wind up with a gapless joint. Note that this only works if the initial gap is very small so that you don't see any significant change to the width of the frame parts after trimming.

IMG_4232.JPG

Test frame clamped up to check gaps.

IMG_4235.JPG

Typical gap - nice to be this close but tricky to set up in the fixture to trim across the half-frame for final assembly.

The other requirement for a tight frame is to have all the parts on identical length. After a little trial and error (mostly error), I found that the best way was to attach a jig with interchangeable stop blocks to the saw table - the planter was an elongated octagon so three different lengths were required for each frame. Keeping the bevel setting through the completion of the job was the best way, so I cut the pieces by flipping the stock front-to-back after each cut. I would cut all parts of the same length, swap out the stop block, and repeat. The initial stop blocks were just clamped to the table, using the template to locate it, but that got cumbersome when I was making the planters in batches so I came up with the idea of using dowels as locators, that worked very well.

IMG_3972.JPG

Clamped-on stop, with template used to locate relative to the saw kerf in the plywood table.

IMG_4226.JPG

The three stop blocks with locating dowels - I used longer dowels so I would have a projection (handle) to use when removing.

IMG_4227.JPG

Stop removed to show the three sets of dowel holes in the plywood table.

I made, I think, four batches of the planters with the largest batch being 6, and think I was still making or modifying the tooling at the end of the last batch. I needed a rest after the last batch - each planter has 54 pieces, including 40 mitered pieces for the frames - so I went to other projects, but now my wife is asking for a larger size which will take a 10" flower pot rather than just 8", so thinking that I my have to drag out the tooling again for one more batch as I actually had a waiting list when I finished the last batch.

[Stick486]

after all this suspect your saw...

Let's suspect your material too...
are all of the widths exactly the same???...
are all of the edges perfectly flat, straight and parallel???...
is all of the material the same thickness???...
if not, yur handicapped from the get go and you'll never get the angle and mate ups you are looking for - twice...

add some camo to the butt joints...
lightly chamfer or RO (as in small radii) the mating edges...

help yurself out w/ the alignment, glue up and clamping..
accent spline the butts and pin them from the backside w/ your 23GA pinner...
no clamps or jigs required...

[HandyDan]

I have a "Miter Set" which works for setting angles on the table saw and it works very well. BUT is only works if the saw is tuned properly and the length of the pieces are determined with a stop to insure they are all the same length.

https://miterset.myshopify.com/

[Cherryville Chuck]

Have a look at the cut while you're at it. I bought a Delta blade years ago that was supposed to be for miter saws but when I tried making a picture frame in oak the angle was okay but there was still a gap. I looked at the cut and realized that the blade was bouncing off the late summer grain which is harder than the spring grain and the blade was wandering back and forth between them. Some blade stabilizers made a significant improvement. You might have more than one problem.

[smitty10101]

I switched to the table saw.
Slow & steady cuts. eyeballing EACH cut for flatness & smoothness.
Quality of cut 5000% better than the miter saw.
Went thru all the six pieces & 3 alternate pieces for the angle & then sized them to length.
Glued & band clamped them & was happy with the fit.
Gave it over to the BOSS for finishing.
My job is done, except for clean up.

Thank you all for your above suggestions, criticisms, ideas, links, etc.

Good to know the cream moved over from the other forum.

[smitty10101]

2 of you recommended the Miterset.

They sell 2 versions.
one that sets the angles of the miter.
The other sets the miter by the number of sides/pieces needed to make the polygon that you're building.

I can see the advantages of both.

Has anyone used both and would recommend one over the other??

Also, both are to be used with the blade perpendicular to the table and miter gauge & the blade square to each other--prohibiting cutting miters with the blade tilted?? is that correct?

[Herb Stoops]

If you are just doing closed shapes,like so many sided figured, that one is all you need. If you are cutting open angles the other one is the way to go. Even miter gauges can be a little off. This tool is absolutely nuts on with no fooling around. Just set the pins to the angle then put the miter gauge in the slot rotate to the pins and lock down, just takes a minute or two. I bought both, but a person can buy one then after you use it and need the other ,buy the other. There is even a spacer tool that comes with it to split angles that are not a full degree.
Not sure about you second question of a compound angle. That maybe a bit of tinkering with a wicky gauge to set the blade and then set the miter gauge with the miter set.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

You can make the double bevel on a table saw by making a purpose built sled for that job or if you are doing jobs that have different angles it has to be one for each. To make the sled you first make a fence that is angled for the vertical angle. You could cut a solid board that angle by beveling your table saw blade or attach gussets with that angle to a plywood fence. Then you attach that fence at the correct angle to your sled.

That might be hard to understand but an example would be if you were cutting crown molding and the molding was supposed to sit at a 52* angle to your wall. You would build a fence that would hold the molding at 52* and then attach the fence to the sled at the 45* angle it would need to be cut to go around a corner. I built one once to do that particular job and it works perfectly if you get the angles right.

We also used to do that job at a place I worked with the original single bevel chop saws. We had tall ply faces added to the OEM fences on the chop saws and we would take the moldings and hold them against the ply fences at the correct vertical angle and make a pencil mark on the fence along the top of the molding. Then we we would just line the molding up to that mark and chop it off at a 45* angle if we were going around a 90 * corner or 22.5* if we were going around a 45* corner. The moldings had flats on them that were supposed to sit flush against the wall and ceiling so we just had to make sure they were sitting flush against the bed and fence on the saw.

[Stick486]

another plus...
back cut your mating angle a fuzz for a tighter face fit...