Workers Of Wood

After sanding to the next higher grit (or more) than the body of the object I applied a 50/50 clear shellac/alcohol mix to seal the end grain (instead of using a commercial pre sealer).
The commercial brand (Minwax) says to wait 5-10 minutes before applying stain.

so my question is----is there a time frame for using a diluted shellac mix before staining?
If so what's the time?

And is more than one application advised?

In this case the wood is maple (I'm pretty sure). It's been hanging out looking for a project for a while so it's a WAG.

thks

smitty

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:06 am After sanding to the next higher grit

at least double the grit minimum you did the long grit w/.... IE - 600 grit instead of 220
Sand the end grain so there’s absolutely no remaining roughness

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:06 am I applied a 50/50 clear shellac/alcohol mix to seal the end grain

what for???... you like pushing rope uphill???
spray/apply the stain in light enough coats so you don’t need to wipe off any excess.
Spraying stain without wiping deposits an equal amount of color everywhere, so the roughness doesn’t impact the darkness of the color.
.

If you are trying to avoid the end grain being darker than the sides the only way you can be sure is a test piece. I'd probably wait 24 hrs.

Stupidly he asks:

Does it matter, while sanding end grain, if you go with the grain or across the grain?
Would it depend on the "hardness", density, of the wood?

Normally I wouldn't be giving this as much time /thought but it is for a wedding gift and the appearance of the piece will matter----at least to me.

The color of the stain will be a light to medium brown on maple.

Also--- IF I decide to dilute the stain with paint thinner (mineral spirts) what would be a WAG as to the ratio? 75/25? 50/50? for starters.


FWIW--- The Wood Wisperer has a you tube video on staining end grain. The unexpected conclusion---according to the video---is that going past 400(?) doesn't improve the appearance of the end grain. Actually, going to a higher grit deteriorates the appearance. Again FWIW.

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:37 am Does it matter, while sanding end grain, if you go with the grain or across the grain?
Would it depend on the "hardness", density, of the wood?

YES...
go w/ the grain and rays...

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:37 am I decide to dilute the stain with paint thinner (mineral spirits) what would be a WAG as to the ratio?

10%... but why for???

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:37 am FWIW--- The Wood Wisperer has a you tube video on staining end grain. The unexpected conclusion---according to the video---is that going past 400(?) doesn't improve the appearance of the end grain. Actually, going to a higher grit deteriorates the appearance. Again FWIW.

the reason for not going past 400 is because the initial face grain sanding is seldom finer than 120...
what ever the grit used on the face grain - end grain gets sanded two grits finer

Stick486 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:54 am 10%... but why for???

#1 B/C I don't have the inclination to breakout and learn to spray. With the dilution and technique, etc. it is not, at this time, worth it.
#2 my thought was ==a diluted solution on the end grain would be equivalent to full strength on the face grain.

MAYBE the quick and dirty solution would be to put gel stain on the end grain and "liquid" stain on the face grain???? I'm, right now, in an experimental stage so I might be trying several approaches. Who knows--- the whim may pass before I finish this post!!!!

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:26 am #2 my thought was ==a diluted solution on the end grain would be equivalent to full strength on the face grain.

no...

The more you sand with progressively finer grits, the more you close up the pores in the grain. The more you close up the grain, the less penetration (and darkness) you get. You could also try burnishing the end grain by rubbing it with a block of wood. That literally bends the ends of the fibers over, effectively closing the pores. It also shines the wood because light reflects off it more. Diluting the stain with solvent will allow it to soak in deeper.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:08 am Diluting the stain with solvent will allow it to soak in deeper.

So how would you lighten a stain prior to applying it??
Mix it with a lighter stain??

smitty10101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:09 pm So how would you lighten a stain prior to applying it??

less set time before wiping...
apply stain wipe w/ solvent...

Smitty; the issue arises because the stain is acting in two different environments.
with the face grain the stain is essentially lying on top of a fairly impermeable surface...it just sits there.
With end grain it's sucked into the capillary tubes, running the full length of the tree. It's literally pulled into the tubes, and given enough time and stain would travel the full length.
If you make an end grain cutting board for example, and lay it face side down in a shallow bath of mineral oil, by morning it will have travelled right through to the top side, saturating the interior of the panel.
Long story short; the shellac seals those tubes preventing the stain from doing anything different than it's action on the face grain.

DaninVan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:42 pm the shellac seals those tubes preventing the stain from doing anything different than it's action on the face grain

EXACTLY what I had understood. Hence the original question as to how long to leave the shellac on before applying the stain.
But the consensus seems to be to just sand it to a higher grit to burnish close the pores.

I, for the lonest time, was under the impression that some type of sealer COULD be used OR sanding to 2 grits higher would work in most cases. Obviously the wood species would/could dictate a different approach.

Either way the project is partially under stain and in the AM (if it's cool enough in the garage) I'll put the remained under stain.

The sample pieces were sander and sealed and show promise. We'll see.

As a post project experiment I plan on diluting some stain to see if/how it will lighten. For future reference. IF I can remember that in the future.

Back in the Dark Ages, when I took Woodworking in HS, we used 'Sanding Sealer'. Not even sure what it was chemically speaking. Some kind of lacquer or shellac maybe?
https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/produc ... -sealcoat/

DaninVan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:16 pm Back in the Dark Ages, when I took Woodworking in HS, we used 'Sanding Sealer'. Not even sure what it was chemically speaking. Some kind of lacquer or shellac maybe?
https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/produc ... -sealcoat/

I think the idea is that it seals the pores so that the stain just sits on the surface, whether the grain under it is open or closed which is the problem with a number of woods, including cherry, birch, and pine.