Dying...

[DaninVan]

...as in staining!
I've been playing with RIT fabric dyes; fantastic product. I love it.
Lots of practical info at the RIT website, but here's some highlights, and something you won't find there.
1) Firstly this stuff is POTENT. One small bottle will make between 3 and 4 liters of dye. We're not talking about paint, this is a waterborne dye that goes along ways. i made up a 2 liter batch using a 1/2 bottle of dye 'Tangerine'. I'm done my project and i still have at least 80% of the batch remaining.
2) this dye allows you to get just about any colour in the rainbow without obscuring the grain. It's effect is obviously more effective on a light colour wood as the darker species don't reflect light back out through the stain/dye...the reflected light is where the colour comes from.
Think of the gels they use over stage lighting to get coloured light.
3) It's best used hot,and you get more even dying if you dampen your wood first, let it dry a bit then give it a gentle sanding with 320 grit...cuts the raised fibres off. Then either dip or apply the dye with a foam brush.
4) OK; here's the new info part. I've been playing around with clear gloss poly urethane to which I've added a few drops of dye concentrate.
i now have a coloured glaze. Not quite as intense as the applied dye but as you apply additional layers of the poly glaze the colour deepens.
Very even colour coverage this way.
I made a bunch of storage boxes for KAPPLA style building block sets. I figured might as well go intense, kid's toys right?
These are for our Woocrafter's Guild Xmas toy donation to Community Services here.
Not intended to be 'fine woodworking'; these are just practical.'
https://www.ritdye.com/dye-wood/

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[Nickp]

Vibrant color...NICE...!

I've often wanted to play with dyes...just haven't gotten there yet. Your post might just put me over the edge...thanks

[Nickp]

@DaninVan

Dan...How did you apply the dye...brush, cloth/wipe on...?

[DaninVan]

Nick; I used a foam brush, but whatever works for you. I decided on a foam applicator to try and get an even application...I used very hot dye...and it soaks in very quickly. It's on SPF lumber, Spruce in this case, and man does it suck up the colour!
I'm actually liking the glazing alternative. The dye doesn't seem to have any affect on the Poly when it's mixed in directly.
Another option which I haven't played with yet, is to mix the dye with Isopropyl alcohol as a solvent. Might be a good choice for dipping small parts?
I got the idea for 'glazing' from having done watercolour painting. You should be able to use a poly+dye glaze over any other staining process where you would normally use a poly finish.
The more coats of poly glaze you apply, the more pronounced the depth of colouration; it would allow you to shift the final apparent colour quite a bit.

[DaninVan]

Oops...sorry about the double post.

[Herb Stoops]

Oops...sorry about the double post.

There is a delete post button, right by the pencil icon.
Herb

[DaninVan]

They took mine away...must be something i said.

[DaninVan]

Oops...they gave it back. ( I may have mentioned 'Sidney Powell' getting involved)

[Cherryville Chuck]

I deleted it for you. I've been using SamaN wood stain for a while now. They call it a stain but I personally think it's probably more of a dye. By mixing colors there are 127 or 128 colors possible. You can go with traditional hues of stain or really jazz things up with colors like eggplant. No matter what the color it doesn't hide the grain. Even with black the grain still shows, but not as much as a lighter color would. A bunch of the Rona stores here sell it but not all. The one in Grande Prairie doesn't for example. A web search says they are available from ebay and I know there are some stores in the US that ship it and maybe Amazon carries it. It is more expensive than the Rit is so I'll have to have a look at it but I can heartily recommend the SamaN. Because it acts like a dye you can top coat with anything you want. Here are some images of the color charts. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=saman+ ... &ia=images

[Nickp]

Nick; I used a foam brush, but whatever works for you. I decided on a foam applicator to try and get an even application...I used very hot dye...and it soaks in very quickly. It's on SPF lumber, Spruce in this case, and man does it suck up the colour!
I'm actually liking the glazing alternative. The dye doesn't seem to have any affect on the Poly when it's mixed in directly.
Another option which I haven't played with yet, is to mix the dye with Isopropyl alcohol as a solvent. Might be a good choice for dipping small parts?
I got the idea for 'glazing' from having done watercolour painting. You should be able to use a poly+dye glaze over any other staining process where you would normally use a poly finish.
The more coats of poly glaze you apply, the more pronounced the depth of colouration; it would allow you to shift the final apparent colour quite a bit.

Did you have any problems keeping a "wet edge" and not double-applying/overlapping...?

[Nickp]

They took mine away...must be something i said.

Sent you a PM....

[Herb Stoops]

Michael Dresdner, well known finisher likes water based dyes under water based clear finishes. Here is an article he published.
https://generalfinishes.com/blog/2015/0 ... l-dresdner
He even said at a finishing presentation for our club, that Latex paint can be diluted down and mixed to any color your heart desires for staining wood and then go with a water base finish.

Herb

[Nickp]

Michael Dresdner, well known finisher likes water based dyes under water based clear finishes. Here is an article he published.
https://generalfinishes.com/blog/2015/0 ... l-dresdner
He even said at a finishing presentation for our club, that Latex paint can be diluted down and mixed to any color your heart desires for staining wood and then go with a water base finish.

Herb

Interesting article...thanks...

[DaninVan]

Re the wet edge; not really a problem if you work quickly. I guess that means yes if you don't (work quickly).
The RIT article suggests dampening your wood prior to applying the dye, much like applying a 'wash' in watercolour painting.
The RIT price is right; $6.50 Cdn per bottle. You may be able to find the boxed powder RIT dyes for a lot less, but keep in mind that they make only 1/2 the amount as the liquid version, So 2x the list price for comparison sake.

[kmealy]

Be interested to know how color fast it is over time.

[DaninVan]

Keith; I'm hoping that the polyurethane finish will help reduce both oxidation and UV deterioration. It is fabric dye after all; hopefully it's been stabilized...
Here's a couple of test samples;
the smaller piece is dyed with 3 coats of poly over.
The longer piece is, from the right , raw Spruce, one coat of very lightly tinted poly glaze, two coats of the same mix and three coats of the same mix.
More tint and/or more coats would substantially deepen the coloration.

[Herb Stoops]

Dan, was that water based Poly? Some of the water based poly has UV inhibitors in them.
HErb

[DaninVan]

Dan, was that water based Poly? Some of the water based poly has UV inhibitors in them.
HErb

Absolutely! The dye is water based, so adding any amount directly to oil based polyurethane would likely be a disaster. Topcoating with oil-based would probably be OK...unless it lifted the dye(?)
I think I'd want to clarify the inhibitor part before i bought any particular brand, i mean that it had inhibitors.

[Herb Stoops]

I have not used this but it says it has uv inhibitors
https://www.paintsupply.com/product/int ... r-topcoat/

I use Minwax Acrylic I don't know if they are UV safe or not.
HErb

[Cherryville Chuck]

Dan, was that water based Poly? Some of the water based poly has UV inhibitors in them.
HErb

Absolutely! The dye is water based, so adding any amount directly to oil based polyurethane would likely be a disaster. Topcoating with oil-based would probably be OK...unless it lifted the dye(?)
I think I'd want to clarify the inhibitor part before i bought any particular brand, i mean that it had inhibitors.

You might be able to tint oil based poly with the powdered version.If it will dissolve in oil. I don't think it makes a difference what finish you put over a dye. You just have to make sure that the water has completely evaporated out of the wood. As many years as I've been using SamaN I'm thinking I must have put something oil based over it at some point. Although the instructions for SamaN say to brush or spray it on I still find rubbing it in with a cloth to work the best.

[Herb Stoops]

The top of the line that I have found is Target finishes, they are a little more expensive ,but they are UVI and give the clearest coat I have found. they donot yellow the original wood like other finishes do, the wood looks like it did before finishing and they flatten out as they dry and age,Also they are colacing finish that chemically mixes with the previous coat instead of just laying on top.
https://www.targetcoatings.com/
HErb

[roxanne562001]

Thanks for sharing I will have to give dying wood a try using fabric dye.

Do you know what happens to laying chickens that stop laying eggs during Easter time?

"They Dye" Yuck!! Yuck!! Yuck!!

I couldn't help myself old farm girl joke.

[tomp]

I've never used the Rit dye, but have used TransTint, mixed with water-based lacquer and primarily to give some depth to the water-based finish which looks too artificial (to my taste anyway) in some cases. I'd have to look at the bottle any more to see which color I used (may have been recommended in Flexner's book?) but Dan's right, it only takes a drop to give the effect of an oil-base finish with the water-base. I was making a cherry display case at the time and spent a lot of time researching my finish options as I wanted to get it right. I'd sprayed the water-based lacquer on a test panel and didn't like the artificial look - almost like a photograph, with no "depth" to the finish - and I talked to the tech expert at the manufacturer and picked his brains on several occasions. The finish I was using was "J.E. Moser's Premium Spray Lacquer", which I think was purchased at Woodworkers Supply - Moser is just a packager/reseller but I managed somehow to track down the actual manufacturer. That was probably close to 20 years ago now and I've unfortunately lost the (many pages of) notes that I took with their expert. As I recall I stained the part, dusted on a seal coat of shellac to prevent bleed thru and then sprayed with the Moser's with the TransTint added as he recommended - turned out pretty well considering I was fumbling my way through the project. Probably not a good thing when your making it as a present for the wife of our divisional VP.

[DaninVan]

Thanks for sharing I will have to give dying wood a try using fabric dye.

Do you know what happens to laying chickens that stop laying eggs during Easter time?

"They Dye" Yuck!! Yuck!! Yuck!!

I couldn't help myself old farm girl joke.

Hey, Roxanne; just a suggestion, but you might want to play with some scrap wood before you tackle something that matters.
Just a reminder, picking two colours, opposing each other on the colour wheel gives you neutral colours (probably some form of grey).
That assumes you use equal volumes of pigment for the mix. varying the ratio of the pigments gives you a whole range of tones/shades ranging from one of the colours to the other one opposite.
Make a solution of each colour and use an eye dropper to accuratly measure out your combined colour mix.
All of the above is if you find the pure colours too potent.

[DaninVan]

Sorry, I meant to include the image.

[Cherryville Chuck]

On the wheel it shows mixes directly across from a primary color. Red with green (blue + yellow), blue with orange (red + yellow), and yellow with purple (red + blue). Green and red make brown but I can't remember what the other 2 combinations produce.

[roxanne562001]

I think it will be kind of cool for some of the wood toys I make. I will try some experimenting to see what things look like. Gives many more colors to play with and it is kid safe.

[DaninVan]

On the wheel it shows mixes directly across from a primary color. Red with green (blue + yellow), blue with orange (red + yellow), and yellow with purple (red + blue). Green and red make brown but I can't remember what the other 2 combinations produce.

The central issue that Wilcox makes is that in fact there are 6 primary colours, not three. Two of Red,Blue and Yellow (each).
ie Red~Blue, Red~Yellow, Yellow~Blue and Yellow~Red.
The point he makes is that each of the THREE primary colours has a bias towards each of the other two...there is no such thing as a PURE Red, Blue,or Yellow. They simply don't exist in the spectrum.
If you're mixing colours, for example a Blue with a Yellow bias mixed with Yellow biased toward blue will give you a very clean intense green. However using a Blue with a Red bias and a Yellow biased towards red will give you a more muted Green.
Depends what you are looking for.
His book makes for an excellent read, and colour tinting resource. https://michaelwilcoxschoolofcolour-usa ... 20b5ff1ee9

[DaninVan]

Coincidentally this just popped while i was surfing...
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/you- ... ket-newtab

[Herb Stoops]

I was always taught there are 3 primary colors and the rest are secondary, they are made by combining the 3 primary colors. I don't understand Wilcox logic.
They are determined by light refraction.
Herb

[Cherryville Chuck]

I agree with you Herb, that is what I was taught too but I also see what Dan was getting at. If you look up at a rainbow you'll see what he was saying. I learned to remember the colors by the (acronym?) letters VIBGYOR which stands for violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red. There aren't stark lines between those colors, they gradually transition from one to the next so the shading changes as you go. If you used a blue that was closer to being green than indigo and mixed that with a red then it would probably start to have a brownish tinge to it where a blue that was closer to indigo might give more of a magenta color especially if the red was starting to move towards orange.

[DaninVan]

Exactly, Charles. We were taught a LOT of stuff (back in the dark Ages) which have not withstood the test of time.
In Biology 91 we were taught that there were basically two Life categories, Animalia and Plantae. Hmmm...not so much apparently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)#Summary

That book by Wilcox is worth reading; very interesting discussion of the whole theory of light thing.

[DaninVan]

Heh...I learned the visible spectrum as ROYGBIV. Never forgot that.

[Herb Stoops]

You guys are not talking about True Blue, you are saying that a shade of blue,which is already combined with another color shows up as such and such. Then it is not true blue,which can not be broken into different colors.
HErb

[DaninVan]

That's the point Herb, there is no frequency in the spectrum which can be labelled "True Blue" or (or Red or Yellow); it's like the name says, a spectrum.
Having said that, perhaps the spectral signature of Sodium might be a perfect Yellow?
https://geol105.sitehost.iu.edu/images/ ... ssion_.htm
Apparently not; even Sodium has Red and Green emissions as well as the more noticeable Yellow lines. I did not know that.
Which one is the perfect Blue?...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q74cfx5fi6o11 ... 9.pdf?dl=0

[Herb Stoops]

If you removed the 3 primary colors out out the spectrum you wouldn't have any colors. The rest of the colors are a mixture of those 3 colors.
Herb

[DaninVan]

I included a link in my previous comment to a huge range of watercolour paints. Please tell me which one is pure blue.
I'm pretty sure if you asked everyone here which they thought was the purest blue you'd get a lot of different choices. It's all in the perception of colour.
I'm not suggesting "blue" doesn't exist but rather that it's a huge range of shades and tints. On top of the actual frequency on the spectrum you also have the range of light to dark making the whole pinpointing thing virtually impossible.
There is no pure Blue, just a huge range that fall under that label.

[Herb Stoops]

If you found the frequency in the center of the blue band ,that would be the true blue, both sides would be shades of blue mixed with shades of other colors. The same would go for the yellow and red.
You are saying there are no true colors, if there were no true colors you wouldn't have any shades,it would just be a chaotic mix of frequencies. I am saying you have to have true colors to get consistent shades,
Herb

[OutoftheWoodwork]

Hmm Seems I brought up Rit maybe... six years ago? Word to the wise, however: it also will wash away rather easy. (Learned it the hard way) You'll have to put a good coat of poly or something hard to prevent it from coming off the wood.

P.S. Hiya Dan! Miss me?? LOL

[roxanne562001]

Hmm Seems I brought up Rit maybe... eight years ago? Word to the wise, however: it also will wash away rather easy. (Learned it the hard way) You'll have to put a good coat of poly or something hard to prevent it from coming off the wood.

P.S. Hiya Dan! Miss me?? LOL

Glad you are here Barb was hoping you would stop by. I thought I was all alone over here.