Workers Of Wood

PLEASE!!!!
ask some questions related to WW or the trades so we can get some educational traffic going...

Okay. Is this considered a finger joint or a lap joint? Kids gave wifey a potato slicer for Christmas. She told me to make a stand for it. I said no problem I'll make a box for it to sit on that's high enough so the fries fall into a bowl. No good she said. I can't push the handle down in that position. I need it mounted vertically like you always see it. Crap I'm thinking, that just made things way more complicated. So I needed to make a vertical stand that was tall enough to put a bowl under it. plus wide enough for a large enough bowl, plus be stable enough and strong enough to withstand the considerable force put of it when shoving a potato through the cutters.

I knew angled sides would be more stable plus better accommodate a bowl but the joint between the sides and the back would be a problem as it needed to be pretty strong like a finger joint. Except that if I made finger joints along the edge of the boards they would be short grain and probably snap off in time. That's when I got the idea to alternate the pieces to make a finger type joint. It's easy enough to do I just made sure that each set of 3 pieces were exactly the same width by running them slowly through the TS just before I glued them together. I left the ends a little proud and then smoothed everything out with a belt sander.

The D fir I used was a little pitchy in spots so I gave it two good coats of orange shellac made from flakes from Lee Valley with two coats of varathane on top. The varathane seemed to stick okay so I'm hoping it stays that way.

most excellent design and execution... KUDOS...
I say neither on the joinery..
I declare them to be box joinery...
. . .

The one we had at the Legion was just mounted on the wall, with a little shelf below to support the bowl the fries ended up in. Just sayin'...

I don't have a place on the wall to mount it. It stays on the newly finished cart when the cart isn't being used to make bread or pies. It got moved onto the kitchen table this morning because today was bread making day. I actually finished this a couple weeks or so before the cart but today was the first time I took the opportunity to take a pic.

Stick486 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:58 pm most excellent design and execution... KUDOS...
I say neither on the joinery..
I declare them to be box joinery...
.

FINGER JOINTS.jpg

FINGER JOINTS

.

MISC LAP JOINTS.jpg

MISC LAP JOINTS

.

BOX JOINT.jpg

BOX JOINERY

Do a web search. You'll find way more that call that joint a finger joint than you do a box joint. Many will call it both. All the old masters, guys like Tage Frid for example, call it a finger joint. The one for joining lumber end to end is traditionally called either a tapered finger joint or splice joint. Unless you typically call the projections something other than fingers then that would make it a finger joint.

from day one I was taught the what I said which joint was which...
that is the way it will stay...

Great job on the stand,Chuck, regardless of what they are called, i call them like Stick does, but that is old school now.

I have used dovetails and box on side grain, once they are all glues up they are as strong as the wood itself.
Just saying.
Herb

Stick486 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:55 pm from day one I was taught the what I said which joint was which...
that is the way it will stay...

Exactly the same for me but the other way around. And like I say when you do web searches that term comes up more often and when you read about old masters that is the term they used. The individual projections are fingers and when you interlace the fingers of your hands together it looks just like that joint. And I also do not intend to change.

Thanks Herb. You may be right. Once glued they might have been just as strong. It would have required a lot less time since I needed to clamp each layer long enough for the glue to set before I could start another. I like it and my wife is happy with which is the most important thing of all.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:25 pm I needed to clamp each layer long enough for the glue to set before I could start another.

why didn't M&T those joints???

Chuck, when I look at the full size picture, it looks like the sides are at an angle to the back. When I look at the close up of the back it looks like they are square to it.
HErb

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:34 pm Do a web search.

that is where those pictures came from...

Herb Stoops wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:33 pm Chuck, when I look at the full size picture, it looks like the sides are at an angle to the back. When I look at the close up of the back it looks like they are square to it.
HErb

The sides are angled 20 degrees to the back. The slicer is 8 1/4" wide if I remember right which would have been too tight for the largest bowl we'd use plus the angles make it more stable and allow easier access to the handle.

Stick486 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:59 pm

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:34 pm Do a web search.

that is where those pictures came from...

Here's some more for you then:


https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=finger ... &ia=images images from a search for finger joints woodworking. You'll see most are for corners but a few are the splice type.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wood ... er-joints/ Popular Woodworking's term for them
https://woodworkjunkie.com/how-to-make- ... ger-joints
https://woodworkjunkie.com/how-to-make- ... ger-joints FWW- mitered finger joints


So how long do you want to try and argue this? I would say that either name is fine and that if someone wants to use one or the other they should never be corrected for doing so.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:26 pm So how long do you want to try and argue this?

I'll wait till the rest of the world gets it straight...

I'm afraid I'm just as stubborn as you are. I don't intend to call something it different that how I learned it and how almost al;l the people whose articles I read and videos I see call it.

This is how I learned it, and IMHO the commercial advertisers convoluted the term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint
After the WWII there was a way devised by lumber manufacturers to use the scrap lumber by joining it together in the factory with a finger joint. It was made by a machine cutter that cut the long tapered "fingers to match the ones that it joined. Before that the wooden boxes going back eons used box joints to make boxes to withstand rough handling in transportation. I never heard of finger joints until after WWII., nor have I ever seen or heard of a tapered "Finger" joint being used to make a corner joint. Butt joints, miter joints, spline joints dovetails, rabbet, dado joints. Maybe a comb joint, which is similar to a finger joint, only straight cut, is the closest I know, and very rarely used.
Just my limited knowledge ,of course,
Herb

Herb Stoops wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:30 pm just my limited knowledge ,of course,

and as usual...
right on the money...

Finger joint - Not to be confused with Box joint....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint
A finger joint, also known as a comb joint, is a woodworking joint made by cutting a set of complementary, interlocking profiles in two pieces of wood, which are then glued. The cross-section of the joint resembles the interlocking of fingers between two hands, hence the name "finger joint". The sides of each profile increases the surface area for gluing, resulting in a strong bond, stronger than a butt joint but not very visually appealing. Finger joints are regularly confused with box joints, which are used for corners of boxes or box-like constructions.

Box joint - Not to be confused with Finger joint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_joint
A box joint, is a woodworking joint made by cutting a set of complementary, interlocking profiles in two pieces of wood, which are then joined (usually) at right angles, usually glued. The glued box joint has a high glued surface area resulting in a strong bond, on a similar principle to a finger joint. Box joints are used for corners of boxes or box-like constructions, hence the name. The joint does not have the same interlocking properties as a dovetail joint, but is much simpler to make, and can be mass-produced fairly easily.

I prefer the simple approach, "that is the joint I used".

This is a scan of a page from Tage Frid's first book, the one on joinery and how to make them. Tage was a classically trained woodworker who apprenticed in Denmark. He was born in 1915 and started apprenticing at age 13 (so 1928). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tage_Frid Tage most likely learned the term finger joint from the master who taught him and so on who knows how far back. Every time I see one of the current masters in FWW refer to the joint they always refer to it first as a finger joint. They may also include the term box joint after because it is commonly used these days. But finger joint is obviously they way they learned it too. Obviously the term predates WW2 but by how much it's hard to say. I'd have to go through old woodworking texts to see just how far back and I only have a few available, maybe back to 1900 or so and I never checked them for that. Up to the time Herb talks about when the tapered finger was possible they probably used scarf joints to join boards. I took a stab at making laminated arch rafters a few years ago and that is the joint I had to use. A 12" slope per inch of thickness. Tage mentioned the tapered finger joint somewhere in book one and he referred to it as a splice joint.

If you go back and look through all the links I posted earlier it is obvious that a whole lot of other people learned it the same way that I did. When you do a DDG search for Finger Joints like I did in one of the links you see that 70% or better of the images show what you are calling a box joint as a finger joint.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:26 am If you go back and look through all the links I posted earlier it is obvious that a whole lot of other people learned it the same way that I did.

it's still not too late to relearn it correctly...

Or for you to. It looks like history is on my side so unless you are dead set on rewriting history.... Didn't you just post a meme about that?

It is not about changing history,it is about applying the correct term to the right situation. These terms mean definitely different things, and if someone was talking about finger joints to me, I would picture a finger joint in my mind, and if someone was referring to a box joint I would picture a box joint in my mind, these are 2 different joints and not the same in any way. here is what current articles say about it.
You can use a finger joint on the edge joinery but not a box joint,if it is square like a box joint it is called a tongue and groove. To me this box Joint is not a true term for finger joint, and finger joint is not the true term for box joint, even if craftsmen do use it interchangeably one can not be the other, a box joint is a box joint and a finger joint is a finger joint, they are completely different.
HErb
Here is what the WOOD Finish and Wood Furniture Glossary Classifies it.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:29 am Or for you to. It looks like history is on my side so unless you are dead set on rewriting history.... Didn't you just post a meme about that?

see post #23...

See post #20 and then go back and check all the links on #14. Do the DDG search for yourself using "finger joint" and count how many favor my term as opposed to yours. And since you told me to look at post #23 you might notice that it calls the end to end splice a "tapered finger joint". Exactly what I bin telling ya. Thanks for that Herb.

The Brits call the hood of a car a 'bonnet' and we call it a 'hood'.
Chesterfield=couch=sofa=divan=settee...you get the picture?

this sounds like a GW debate...

DaninVan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:57 pm The Brits call the hood of a car a 'bonnet' and we call it a 'hood'.
Chesterfield=couch=sofa=divan=settee...you get the picture?

I gave him that way out at the bottom of post #14. He chose not to take it or didn't read it.

you could have made those joints bridles (sp?)..
and pivoting ones at that...

Bridle as in a tongue or tenon fitting into a slot like old door and window frames? I'm not sure what the advantage of that would be.

Further to herb's illustration...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=16J7501
All I'm saying is that it isn't carved in stone; the descriptive seems to be fairly loosey goosey. Maybe it's regional, or language related.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:04 pm Okay. Is this considered a finger joint or a lap joint? Kids gave wifey a potato slicer for Christmas. She told me to make a stand for it. I said no problem I'll make a box for it to sit on that's high enough so the fries fall into a bowl. No good she said. I can't push the handle down in that position. I need it mounted vertically like you always see it. Crap I'm thinking, that just made things way more complicated. So I needed to make a vertical stand that was tall enough to put a bowl under it. plus wide enough for a large enough bowl, plus be stable enough and strong enough to withstand the considerable force put of it when shoving a potato through the cutters.

I knew angled sides would be more stable plus better accommodate a bowl but the joint between the sides and the back would be a problem as it needed to be pretty strong like a finger joint. Except that if I made finger joints along the edge of the boards they would be short grain and probably snap off in time. That's when I got the idea to alternate the pieces to make a finger type joint. It's easy enough to do I just made sure that each set of 3 pieces were exactly the same width by running them slowly through the TS just before I glued them together. I left the ends a little proud and then smoothed everything out with a belt sander.

The D fir I used was a little pitchy in spots so I gave it two good coats of orange shellac made from flakes from Lee Valley with two coats of varathane on top. The varathane seemed to stick okay so I'm hoping it stays that way.

That is a great Idea Chuck I have a French Fry cutter just like that.Aside from mounting it on the wall, which I would choose not to do there are not to many options. I mounted mine to a short piece of 2X10 but it doesn't work well. I will have to give it a try. Thanks

The problem here is you have americans arguing with canadians about the ENGLISH language
A BOX joint has blunt square sections, for making "BOX" joints
A FINGER joint has tapered protusions that mesh with the opposite tapers.

Its a simple test; Can you make a 90 degree box joint with fingers? NO
can you make a side by side joint with fingers? YES.

sunnybob wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:23 pm you have Americans arguing with Canadians

ain't happening...

Bob may have a point, or at least LV appears to agree with him...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=16J7501
Look at the small thumbnails over on the left at that link.

sunnybob wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:23 pm The problem here is you have americans arguing with canadians about the ENGLISH language

So it boils down to a female Moose is a Cow? and a female Bovine is a Cow? LOL
HErb

DaninVan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 pm Bob may have a point, or at least LV appears to agree with him...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=16J7501

&f:Category=[Tools,Jigs%2C%20Guides%20%26%20Fixtures]]Jigs, Guides & Fixtures

DaninVan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:59 am Further to herb's illustration...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=16J7501
All I'm saying is that it isn't carved in stone; the descriptive seems to be fairly loosey goosey. Maybe it's regional, or language related.

Looonng day in town, actually 2 towns so I'm late getting back to this discussion. One thing I noticed as I moved from the SE US to NW US to W Canada to N prairie is that terminolgy changes. I worked in an area of the plumbing trade in Alabama. When I got to Oregon some of the part names changed. Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan are special cases of their own. Somebody said something to me about using "puckboard" for something in N Alberta. Took me a while to figure out he was talking about UHMW PE. Too technical for them I guess. I did a web search and found out those are the only 2 places on earth where that term is used. That wasn't the only thing. My boss when I was hauling potable water said "go up that road past the 3rd Bailey bridge and turn at so and so km. I said there aren't any Bailey bridges on that road. He said sure there are and told me the kms they were located at. I said those are just short span steel I-beam bridges. Bailey bridges are angle iron and maybe some T bar that is bolted together. He didn't believe me and is still probably calling them Bailey bridges to this day. And another guy told me about using "boomers" to strap a load down on a truck. I said you mean chain cinches? He said no "boomers". Of course they were one and the same thing.

You guys can argue all you want but keep in mind that I showed you a historical reference to the name I call it it. Not a one of you has yet been able to show me a reference that the box joint term precedes it historically. That coupled with the finger joint images from DDG that were 70 to 85% towards my description, plus numerous renowned expert woodworkers of today who were taught through apprenticeship by older masters all call it the same as I do. And then Herb's last link specifically calls the end to end finger joint fingers as being tapered fingers which if you have to distinguish them that way it means that there are fingers that aren't tapered (since angled ones are called dovetails). I've been telling you that all along. Also called a splice joint. I believe I got that from Tage Frid, the Danish Master who from what I've read is single-handedly responsible for creating woodworking schools here in North America. His was apparently the first in Rochester, NY. Fine Woodworking might not be in business today if it wasn't for Tage. His articles were the ones that kept readers coming back. The book I took the scan from was written in the late 70s and you guys have yet to show me anything with a date earlier than that. Plus if Tage used the term finger joint it is probably how he learned it back in 1928 from the master he learned from.

Otherwise guys your argument is basically a "because I said so" argument and that doesn't win debates unless you happen to be THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS. Then it works. Otherwise it's like a bunch of one legged men joining a butt kicking contest. Thanks for your participation. Would you like a medal for that?

Stick486 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:13 pm

DaninVan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 pm Bob may have a point, or at least LV appears to agree with him...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=16J7501

&f:Category=[Tools,Jigs%2C%20Guides%20%26%20Fixtures]]Jigs, Guides & Fixtures

You do realize that you just shot yourself in the foot, Stick?
Thumbnail from your last link...
https://assets.leevalley.com/Size4/1006 ... u-01-r.jpg
That's Forrest calling the joint a 'finger joint'.

Bazinga! One question I asked everyone has avoided answering. What do you call the projections at the end of the board when you cut them. You know, the ones that mesh with the ones on the end of the other board. Herb, Stick, Dan, and Bob, care to reply on that?