Workers Of Wood

We see people asking all the time about what table saw to buy and for small budgets we see Bosch 4100 mentioned and Dewalt's portable with rack and pinion fence. If you need one that's portable those are good choices. But to me they are still hobby saws that are too light weight and probably won't last. My recommendation is always find an old Rockwell 10". I bought one from a friend about 15 years ago for $100 as a backup to my Unisaw and it isn't that much less of a saw than the Uni is.I exchanged the original fence with an Accusquare that I already had and it cuts beautifully. I just saw this one on the local facebook marketplace for $85 dollars but it's missing the fence and is a little rusty: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 4240%22%7D So for about the price you'd pay for that aluminum and plastic new saw you can have a cast iron and steel saw with a deadly accurate and solid fence with a 1.5 to 2 hp motor that will drive a sharp thin kerf blade through 3" of wood about as fast as you care to push it through. Considering that I think all of these are already at least 50 years old and still going strong, to me that is a no-brainer. Unless you need portability then to me an old Rockwell is the way to go.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:27 am we see Bosch 4100 mentioned.....
they are still hobby saws that are too light weight and probably won't last.

there are a lot of 4100 owners/users that will not agree w/ you based on their VOE...
mine (5) did all I ever asked or forced it to do...
3 are originals new to the market...
they went into all of the satellite shops... (7)....
every project I ever posted was done on 4100's...
all of them are still in use...
a 4100 replaced my 10'' delta 1.5HP contractor's saw... the 4100 is major superior to that saw...
I've used the DeWalt... it's a toy compared to the 4100...
and when the R&P fails, DW won't back it up - yur on Your own...

We'll see in 50 years when they are as old as those Rockwells.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:52 pm We'll see in 50 years

they will serve me the rest of my life time and I won't be using any saw 50 years from now...
the ones that are now in the VoTech school are surviving just fine...

BTW... those small HP Rockwell/Deltas can't make it or survive in a commercial environment...
keep a supply of motors and bearings on hand.. it's a good plan...
and the arbor won't tolerate a motor upgrade for long...

And yet those saws are at least 50 years old I'd say, I remember seeing some when I was quite young. And by the way, we weren't talking about a production setting. I saw the bearings go out of a Unisaw in a production shop I worked in. That can happen to any machine. Bearings are replaceable. I have seen a broken motor cradle or two but I have no idea what caused the breaks. That could have been some kind of abuse.

I can hardly wait 50 years, they probably will not even know what a table saw looks like there won't be any trees left, and we will all be speaking Chinese. The archiologists will be digging up old bosch 4100's and wonder how they cut anything with that old thing.
Just saying,
Herb

Wish I could wait 50 years...!

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:31 pm And by the way, we weren't talking about a production setting.

something that works well and lasts in a commercial environment is proof tested to it's durability...
so it's a no brainer for a hobby shop...
the 4100 is not a hobby saw that is too light weight as you believe but a quality hardworking machine says VOE...

BTW, the bearings in all three of my Unisaw's as as well as the motors, belts and sheaves were replaced when I took possession of the 40's vintage saws in '72 and then again by mid 80's early 90's.....
two needed contactors, auxiliaries and overload relays when I got them... this something that needed doing every 4~5 years w/ OEM parts... coils more often...
FWIW.. when I started using Siemens instead of Square D electrically and Timken bearings my unit cost went down as well as the frequency of repair over OEM...

I don't know anything about the new saws but my old Rockwell Contractor saw has served me well for a lot of years and I purchased it used. Once tuned in with a good fence installed they are great.

In 1962 I bought an old 10" Craftsman with extensions and a 1 hp motor for $85. and used it constantly until I retired. Then threw away the original fence and put an after market Excalibur fence and boosted the motor to 2hp 220v. and what a saw that was. it never slowed down for any wood and no more burn marks. I lost it in the fire later. Now have a $50. 12" craftsmen direct drive saw on 220 v. with an after market fence, and I am happy with it. Of course my Bosch 4100 sees a lot of use too.
HErb

Stick486 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:31 pm And by the way, we weren't talking about a production setting.

something that works well and lasts in a commercial environment is proof tested to it's durability...
so it's a no brainer for a hobby shop...
the 4100 is not a hobby saw that is too light weight as you believe but a quality hardworking machine says VOE...

BTW, the bearings in all three of my Unisaw's as as well as the motors, belts and sheaves were replaced when I took possession of the 40's vintage saws in '72 and then again by mid 80's early 90's.....
two needed contactors, auxiliaries and overload relays when I got them... this something that needed doing every 4~5 years w/ OEM parts... coils more often...
FWIW.. when I started using Siemens instead of Square D electrically and Timken bearings my unit cost went down as well as the frequency of repair over OEM...

Stick I'm afraid your experience notwithstanding, trying to sell me the idea that a saw with a molded plastic base and an aluminum top are going to outlast steel sheet and cast iron is going to be hard to do. Plastics eventually get brittle and crack and even if the arbor is good steel with high quality bearings they are attached to cast aluminum and plastic. Anyone familiar with old cast iron tools knows that the more cast the better because cast has random grain which allows it to absorb vibration better which is eventually the destroyer of every machine.

As an example of that both my brothers in law worked at a major sawmill in MacKenzie, BC. They planed 1Million board feet in one shift once using a 1950s vintage planer. They had a newer planer too but it never did perform as well as the old one which was a massive chunk of cast iron.

Have a good comparative look at the stock photo for the 4100 and my slightly tricked out Rockwell. Just doesn't seem to be an apples to apples argument.

Herb Stoops wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:46 pm In 1962 I bought an old 10" Craftsman with extensions and a 1 hp motor for $85. and used it constantly until I retired. Then threw away the original fence and put an after market Excalibur fence and boosted the motor to 2hp 220v. and what a saw that was. it never slowed down for any wood and no more burn marks. I lost it in the fire later. Now have a $50. 12" craftsmen direct drive saw on 220 v. with an after market fence, and I am happy with it. Of course my Bosch 4100 sees a lot of use too.
HErb

In the early 80s I bought a Sears 1 hp direct drive for about $500 on sale. I used it lots but the fence never was very good. It didn't have a lot of power but it built lots of stuff until I bought the Unisaw in the early 90s. I kept it as a backup and put on the fence that is now on the Rockwell pictured above. That helped considerably. Then a friend sold me his Rockwell so I gave the Sears to my in laws so the father in law would leave my Unisaw alone. In fact I ordered him to never touch it again. They used it until they moved into town and I got it back again. I sold it to a young guy up the road for $10 or $15 with the old fence back on. By this time the tilt had broken so it would only miter or rip. But as far as I know it's still going.

okay so the iron chassis last a long time sans the motor, belts and bearings......
great...
and after you upgrade the motor (which the arbor doesn't take kindly to) and fence you have a saw that matters...
now, haul that out to the job...
I had 3 Uni saws and a Felder pre-exotic electronic series in the shop none of which were never ever going out to the field...
the 4100 out of the box that needed nothing was the answer for remote work, it performed flawlessly and reliably...

something to consider.. w/ the chinese buying Delta, repair parts for a lot Delta tools/machines are not available anymore as in nonexistent ...

Stick486 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:28 am something to consider.. w/ the chinese buying Delta, repair parts for a lot Delta tools/machines are not available anymore as in nonexistent ...

2nd sentence, 1st post: " If you need one that's portable those are good choices." So back on topic, if you are looking for a shop saw and are on a limited budget.... Limited budget also equates as a rule to a hobby shop and the amount of usage hobby implies. The one I bought from my friend has a Doerr motor which is wired 220v so I strongly suspect it is not the original. It was my friend's primary saw for many years and I've had it for at least 15 but it's seen mostly light use since I bought it. Motor is fine, bearings are good, no issues with the motor cradle. Tilt and elevation work smoothly but you can feel a bit of slop but what the hell, it's old. Many of my parts have a lot more slop than that saw does.

I don't buy anything Delta anymore just as I had quit buying Porter Cable and Sears. But there was a time when they were some of the best you could buy. For Sears you have to go a long way back for it to be true but there was a time when it was. Lots of companies that were going concerns at one time aren't around anymore. No one has a crystal ball. Who knows. Maybe Bosch will sell out one day. Remember that Bosch also has cheap lines that are sold elsewhere, i.e. the green Bosch tools.

As can be seen from the picture of mine I added a bit of out feed table to it but that isn't enough. I plan on moving the saw a few feet from where it is and will eventually get around to extending that. My unisaw is set up for full sheets so this saw only does stuff to around 4' or so it doesn't need to be a lot longer. I consider that a safety issue because leaning over a spinning saw trying to hold something down isn't all that safe and the heavier it is and harder you have to press the more dangerous it gets.

I don't have an iron in the Bosch 4100 fire so my thought is pretty much unbiased. A LOT of hobbyists and DIY ers are challenged for space. Having a saw that you can pack up and down stairs, and fold away for storage trumps any perceived advantage of a dedicated cabinet saw for those folks.
My Bosch 10" SCMS is portable so that is extremely helpful...except it doesn't solve the ripping operations.

Portability is certainly an important issue in some cases. Mainly if you need cutting capacity in multiple locations. My son is back home since splitting with his girlfriend. He has a Dewalt with the rack and pinion fence. He has been a DeWalt fan for more than 20 years. The saw is sitting in a corner in the tall bay side of my shop where I have some general storage. It still has a footprint even stored although it is light enough it could go on a shelf. If you don't have a shelf to put it on that footprint isn't a lot smaller than a Rockwell would be if it had the standard fence and the 2 cast wings, all of which I took off mine. Without the extras on mine I could have put it on a mobile base and it could get wheeled into a corner if I was short on space. In a case where you are stressed for space that's your best option. If it's small hang it or stack it. If you can't then roll it.

I took my 4100 off the foldup base and built a rolling cabinet for it, the foldup base takes too much room,and I don't go to job sites anymore. My grand son is a remodeler and he use the foldup base for his chop saw and portable table saw.

Even as large as my shop is I don't have room for any more stationary equipment so everything new has to go on rollers. And some tools are probably better portable anyway. I put my 16" planer on wheels. It gets used in the mechanical bay side of my shop because it produces too many chips for the DC system I have in the woodworking side. I'd be emptying the bag every half hour when I'm planing rough lumber. That side of my shop also isn't heated so I don't like leaving it out there in the winter. The drum sander is also on wheels as is a thickness sander I'm building. Neither of those need a fixed spot. My router table is also on wheels. Being able to move them around keeps a lot of floor space free.

I think a rolling cabinet for the 4100 is a great idea as it also gives you a place to store blades and a dado. I would want to incorporate an outfeed into it which could fold down out of the way when not in use on a roller cabinet.

I Have the retractable right side and rear table slide out extensions and they work good.
Most of my tools are on casters. Both table saws, band saw, 2 drill presses Drum sander, jointer, planer, and router table.
HErb

How big a footprint does the roller set up for the bandsaw require to keep it stable? I've thought about mine being on a wheeled frame but it's an 18" and I occasionally resaw some large pieces and I'd be concerned about stability. They are fairly top heavy.

I have a 14" and it has metal legs, so I made a dolly of 3/4" plywood 1"L and1"W than the foot print of the steel legs. with a band around it that sticks up 3/4" above the top of the plywood. I store my unused blades on that too. It will raise the table depending on the size of casters plus the thickness of the plywood. I used 2 locking castors.
Herb

The jointer is the one you really have to be cautious with for tipping over too. I had a 6" that I put wheels on a dolly and set under the steel stand. They are top heavy to begin with and while moving it a caster caught on a chip of wood the the jointer tipped over. I caught it and about tore my arm off,but it still went down and broke the cast iron fence.
HErb

My jointer is an 8" and 220 v so it has a dedicated footprint. I wouldn't have thought about it being that top heavy because it sits a lot lower than all my other machines. I thought the planer might be a problem since it's about 275 pounds but it's been good even planing long, heavy stuff. I had a piece of 3" by 3" angle iron 1/4" thick so I mounted the angle iron to the legs and the castors to the angle iron and that worked well. I'd still be leery about mounting the band saw to wheels. The thought of it tipping over is scary.

Cherryville Chuck wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:03 am My jointer is an 8" and 220 v so it has a dedicated footprint. I wouldn't have thought about it being that top heavy because it sits a lot lower than all my other machines. I thought the planer might be a problem since it's about 275 pounds but it's been good even planing long, heavy stuff. I had a piece of 3" by 3" angle iron 1/4" thick so I mounted the angle iron to the legs and the castors to the angle iron and that worked well. I'd still be leery about mounting the band saw to wheels. The thought of it tipping over is scary.

I agree with one that big and hi, Unless you use one of those commercial mobile base set ups that are only about 1/2" off the floor. like I use on my large drill press.
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&q=Machin ... &ia=images
I use one on each of my drill presses and they work good on a concrete floor.
Herb

Normally I wouldn't be too worried about a drill press on wheels. But one day I was using my rosette cutter in mine, the type that is a head with interchangeable two piece blades and I thought maybe my problem was that it wasn't turning fast enough. So I changed the belts to the 3000 rpm setting. First time I'd ever seen a 16 1/2" floor standing DP act like a pendulum.

https://www.dkhardware.com/ridgid-r4520 ... m4EALw_wcBI just picked up this saw new in the box off of Facebook market place for 350 bucks I thought it was a pretty good deal. I am now waiting for my son to help me get it into my shop. Anyone have any experience with this unit.

roxanne562001 wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:27 pm 309412843_usn.jpghttps://www.dkhardware.com/ridgid-r4520 ... m4EALw_wcBI just picked up this saw new in the box off of Facebook market place for 350 bucks I thought it was a pretty good deal. I am now waiting for my son to help me get it into my shop. Anyone have any experience with this unit.

No experiences but from what I have read this model with the iron top is the best one they made...a very desirable saw...and hard to find, too...

Good luck with it...! Congrats...!

My cousin has that same model with the granite top and loves it. He has had it for several years, no complaints,he likes the way the motor cranks straight up and down instead of swinging. That was a good buy by the way.
HErb

New those Ridgid Tablesaws sell for $1165, They were originally made by Steel City,
and had the best castiron tops for level on the market, from what I have read.
Herb

My son helped me yesterday we got it in the shop. He couldn't stay long he had to go to a job. But at least I can try to assemble it now. I have some cleaning and rearranging to do in my shop. I will send some picks after I get it assembled should be a few days. I will have to get him back to help me move it around. That bugger is very heavy!!

Does it have the wheels that lift up and down to move it around?
Herb

Yes it has the wheels just like that after I get it assembled right now it is in the box upside down but that is how they want you to assemble it. I will need help to stand it up.

Oh yes, By all means don't try lifting it yourself. I thought that it was assembled on the stand except for the fence.
HErb

engine lift...
beg, borrow, steal, rent or buy...
. .
use it w/ a leveler...
.

I used a cable hoist when I assembled my 15" Delta planer.I spanned a couple of ceiling joist and hooked the hoist to that to set the planer on the stand.
herb

Herb Stoops wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:36 pm I used a cable hoist when I assembled my 15" Delta planer.I spanned a couple of ceiling joist and hooked the hoist to that to set the planer on the stand.
herb

That is what I was thinking using a cable puller suspended from and spanned across a couple roof trusses . But I am waiting for my son to come over to help me. If I had access to one of those cranes I would defiantly use that Stick. My sons trailer is tied up if it wasn't I would have him bring his tractor over he has a bucket with a fork lift adaptor. We will figure it out I just have to be patient.

A nylon tow strap works good too, to wrap around it an not mar it up.
Also if you use the cable hoist, use the double purchase hook up on the cable like the picture shows, it requires only half the effort to lift, but your an Engineer and know all that anyway.
Just saying,
Herb

The trick when lifting like that is where to hook it so you can still be able to rotate it. If you can attach it to a rafter 2 or 3 ratchet straps will work. Lift as far as you can with one and then start another one.

Up date on the Ridged saw purchase. I thought I was in a big mess. I got it stood up and out of the box. I plugged it in and flipped the switch and nada.
just a loud buzzing sound. Panic mode set in.I called Ridged and gave them all the info. Thank goodness the original owner never registered the saw. I gave them a hard luck story and the super nice folks at Ridged gave me a complementary Life Time Warranty . To make a very long story short. I had to take it to a Ridged service center which was a giant Home Depot store about 50 miles from my home. They told me to strip all the non essential parts off the saw so it was easier for them to handle They found that the motor had a bad bearing. Replacement motor was No longer available for my serial number saw. Oh no. But the nice folks at Ridged came through again they sent me a brand new updated model complete saw. I now have spare everything I think. Even an extra base and rip fence. All I can say is the Ridged service went well above and beyond. I would not hesitate to buy there products in the future. I got it 2 days before my trip to see my parents so it is sitting on a pallet in my garage. So when I get home I really will send some pics of the shop with the new saw.