Who Comes Up With This Stuff?

[DaninVan]

LV has a nice piece of blind shelf support hardware...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/ha ... f-supports
The installation requires a 7/16" drill bit with an overall length of at least 7". Seriously?! For the average DIY guy that's like asking for a #4 left Hand skyhook.
Yes, of course they're available but they aren't easy to find and some are really expensive.
My first thought was a 7/16" ships auger, 10" to 12" long. Once again they're out there but either not inexpensive and/or hard to find somewhere that actually has one in stock. Irwin and Milwaukee both make them but they're in the $30 Cdn price range.
Why didn't the engineers simply design it for either 3/8" or 1/2"? Everyone has those...

[RainMan]

I’d have to check my drill bits , but I doubt their 7” long

[Stick486]

LV has a nice piece of blind shelf support hardware...
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/ha ... f-supports
The installation requires a 7/16" drill bit with an overall length of at least 7". Seriously?! For the average DIY guy that's like asking for a #4 left Hand skyhook.
Yes, of course they're available but they aren't easy to find and some are really expensive.
My first thought was a 7/16" ships auger, 10" to 12" long.

Bosch Daredevil 7/16 x 12 in. Spade Bit... 7$....

[Stick486]

The installation requires a 7/16" drill bit with an overall length of at least 7".

any particular type that you prefer???
.

P1010431.JPG

[DaninVan]

I'm not keen on using a spade bit for hand drilling these ...no guarantee of the hole going in absolutely perpendicular. That's why an auger is my first choice. I can make a guide block on the DP that will control the entry for the first few inches, once I set it up on the shelf edges. If I was doing this here, I'd rig up a jig to hold the shelf perpendicular to the bit in the DP...but I'm not (here). No DP over there; it'll have to be freehand with whatever guides and support i can rig up.

[Herb Stoops]

I have several sets of hand brace and bits that I could cut off the tang. Start the hole with a bradpoint bit ,then go to the longer bit, by hand or on the drill press. If I remember, the typical drillpress only has around 3" of quill travel. So 2 to 3 setups will be required, unless you use a hand brace.
Those look really cool, people would really scratch their heads to figure out how those shelves are hung.
Herb

[Herb Stoops]

I wouldn't do it without a drill press to at least start the holes. If one comes out tilting up, and the other down,or right or left, the whole thing is going to be wrong.
Herb
If I didn't have a drillpress, I would make a jig to take with me of a block drilled on the drill press with a slat down each side to slide along the board to position it and hold it perpendicular to clamp in position to guide the drill bit.
Herb

[Nickp]

Go figure…and only 3 flathead screws to hold up the 7/16 rod…doesn’t make sense. Good ole way is good enough for me…

[Stick486]

use a bit brace...

[Stick486]

Go figure…and only 3 flathead screws to hold up the 7/16 rod…doesn’t make sense. Good ole way is good enough for me…

the screws go into studs...

[Cherryville Chuck]

Installer bits- usually 12" long. Plus they are hardened HSS or tool steel twist drills so you don't have to worry about hitting nails. I don't have a 7/16 but I have sizes 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, and 1/2. Most of the common sizes I use woodworking. They are handy for finishing holes that regular bits are too short for. I don't know why they had to pick 7/16 though.

If you don't have a dp to make a guide then take a square piece of panel at least 6" wide and draw a line across it with a square. Lay it on your bench and shim under it until the surface is roughly at the middle of the block you want to use as a guide. Lay the bit down flat on it on the drawn line and while holding the guide block against it drill your hole. It will be close enough to dead square to work. Instead of a drawn line you could make a couple of shallow saw kerfs on the TS instead and that would be pretty well dead accurate.

I used this method last year when I made some laminated 2x4 change room benches for a local hockey team. Once I laminated the seats together I decided to put all thread truss rods through them. At 16" wide my installer bit wouldn't go all the way through so I drew a line across the seat with a square and used the method I just described. I laid the square across the bench and lined my bit up with the leg of the square and drilled from both sides. I hit the opposing hole dead on 12 out of 12 tries so I consider that a perfectly viable method for lining up opposing holes.

[Nickp]

Go figure…and only 3 flathead screws to hold up the 7/16 rod…doesn’t make sense. Good ole way is good enough for me…

the screws go into studs...

Thank you, Captain Obvious...

[Stick486]

Thank you, Captain Obvious...

yur welcome...
besides...
it's a more gooder idea to make the self a torsion box....
skip the brackets and set the rods straight into the studs...

[DaninVan]

Herb @ #7
Exactly. My plan. But Nick's comment also...my preference actually, but not my house. I'll gently suggest...
Everybody I've chatted with about this says the same thing, drill the shelf and the studs. Jigs for perpendicularity.

[Stick486]

drill the shelf and the studs.

that's what I said...

Jigs for perpendicularity.

that's what Herb and Chuck said...

[Herb Stoops]

Herb @ #7
Exactly. My plan. But Nick's comment also...my preference actually, but not my house. I'll gently suggest...
Everybody I've chatted with about this says the same thing, drill the shelf and the studs. Jigs for perpendicularity.

"perpendicularity."
[/quote]
Now that is a mouthful.......LOL
Herb

[DaninVan]

So we have quorum?
I'll tell them 'the tribe has voted'...

[Herb Stoops]

Are you going to cut out the drywall to get back to the Wood?
Sometimes drywall compresses when brackets are screwed through it and the leverage of the weight on the shelf torquing the bracket against it will do the same. Ideally the drywall should be replace with a wooden block to flush out with the surface and offer solid bearing.
Just saying....
Herb

[Stick486]

Are you going to cut out the drywall to get back to the Wood?

just drill the DW on the way into the stud...
insert the rod in the hole... w/ or w/o adhesive...

[DaninVan]

Are you going to cut out the drywall to get back to the Wood?
Sometimes drywall compresses when brackets are screwed through it and the leverage of the weight on the shelf torquing the bracket against it will do the same. Ideally the drywall should be replace with a wooden block to flush out with the surface and offer solid bearing.
Just saying....
Herb

Not a chance; not touching the drywall. I really just want to go with simple and drill through and into the studs. KISS.
This is a 2 hour job, max.

[Stick486]

This is a 2 hour job, max.

check that...
w/ our luck we'll find the DW screws right where the hole needs to be or the electrical and plumbing that passes through the stud...

[DaninVan]

DW screws I can remove. I'm glad you mentioned the plbg. though, If I picture the floor plan correctly, in my head, I think there's a Bathroom behind the wall but up 3 stairs,,,definitely will be checking that out, no matter which system they want to go with!

[CharleyL]

12" long drill bits are quite easy to get. Industrial Suppliers like Grainger and McMaster Supply carry them. Even Amazon has them.

amazon.com/s?k=12+long+drill+bits&crid=1N7WHAWEQSHV0&sprefix=12"+long+drill+bits%2Caps%2C93&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_18

Ever want left hand drill bits? I have an index full of them, obtained from a local Industrial Supplier. They are quite handy when removing broken bolts, because most of the time the forces of drilling will actually back the broken bolt out before you need to fully drill them out. Reversible hand drills are readily available now, and I have put a twist in the belt of my drill press to reverse the bit a few times. As I remember, the full index of left hand twist drill bits was about the same price as a similar set of right hand bits. I've had a set in my shop for years. I don't resort to them often, but they are worth their weight in gold sometimes.

Amazon has them too.

amazon.com/Neiko-10037A-Titanium-Nitride-Coating/dp/B000BMJX8C/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1975X6FV14R7F&keywords=left+hand+drill+bits+for+broken+bolts&qid=1643072036&sprefix=left+hand+drill+bits%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-8

Charley

[DaninVan]

can't you just pull the plug and turn it 180 deg...
Seriously though, if they'll just let me use store bought steel rod in either 3/8" or 1/2" we're good to go.
Everything is at least 30% to 50% more expensive up here. I'm not paying $20-$30 for a bit I'll use once

[Herb Stoops]

Rebar might work, or get a long drill bit, (2) and drill it in unchuck it, chuck up the other, do the same, done. Sure hope those framers put the studs in the right location. My luck would be they glued the sheet rock to CMU.

Herb

[DaninVan]

What's wrong with cold rolled steel rod, or threaded rod? I'm trying to simplify not make it harder. *sheesh!*

[Herb Stoops]

Depends on how much weight is going to be put on the shelf, I guess. Books add up fast. threaded rod and cold rolled are usually mild steel.
Herb

[Stick486]

Depends on how much weight is going to be put on the shelf, I guess. Books add up fast. threaded rod and cold rolled are usually mild steel.
Herb

rebar is milder...
Plain Cold Rolled Steel Weldable Solid Round Rod...
½" x10' - 8 bucks...

[DaninVan]

We're a little off track here, guys. My original complaint was the odd size requirement for the long drill. Engineers and architects (some anyway) live in an alternate universe where everything is as they imagine it.
With a bookshelf mounted tight to the wall you couldn't deform 3 pcs of 1/2" cold rolled steel if you tried; you'd have to park your pickup on it.
Keep in mind the LV ones are 7/16" and suggested load is 50lbs but that's with screwed on brackets.

I wouldn't have any hesitation in using 24" lengths on a wall mtd lumber rack.

[Stick486]

We're a little off track here, guys. My original complaint was the odd size requirement for the long drill

we jumped to ½" rod... to cover the bit issue...

if they'll just let me use store bought steel rod in either 3/8" or 1/2" we're good to go.
Everything is at least 30% to 50% more expensive up here. I'm not paying $20-$30 for a bit I'll use once

the ½" rod wasn't cheap enough???

[DaninVan]

Yes and yes...I have 1/2" and 3/8" augers; that was my whole point. Why would anyone go out and buy a 7/16" ships auger? It's an orphan size.
Fine, if your whole goal in life is to collect tools, (or camera equipment) for no other reason than to have the most tools (or camera equipment) than sure.

[Stick486]

why wouldn't a long shear rated lag in grade 5 or better work...
or even a grade rated carriage bolt....

[Stick486]

why wouldn't a long shear rated lag in grade 5 or better work...
or even a grade rated carriage bolt....

[DaninVan]

why wouldn't a long shear rated lag in grade 5 or better work...
or even a grade rated carriage bolt....

Why would it make any difference that matters? With the metal "dowel' fully inserted into the shelf and the stud, with the shelf pushed tight to the wall, there's nowhere that the rod can deform...it's surrounded by wood in every direction. If any thing breaks it'll be either the stud splitting or the shelf.
This isn't rocket science; there's simply nowhere for the rod to bend (deform). Same basic principle as rebar in concrete. The steel is strong in tension and the concrete is strong in compression.

[Stick486]

Why would it make any difference that matters?

I was perusing the price angle...

[DaninVan]

Steel rod is 1/3 the cost of a new auger and less than 1/2 the cost of those LV brackets (two sets).

[DimitriM]

Long drill bits, is one thing to talk about; perpendicularity (retaining a right angle to the wall with the shelves loaded with books - a particularly heavy thing) is another thing; and longevity (for how long will the overall structure manage to keep the books ordained) is the last thing.
For this reason, from ancient times, in several tribes, the right-angled construction of a bookcase has become a classic field of interest for amateur woodworkers, even to the point of arts and crafts masochistic narrow-spaced vertical bits for the sides, as if nobody ever used a dustcolth to try and go between them just to break their knuckles on them trying to remove dust.
Extra long drill bits, they are on the internet, not very easy to find, but not hard to get either.
The problem here is how you manage to keep the system shelf-and-stem at right angle to the wall - When it collapses the damage will be on the wall.
If somebody already made it and you found it, you will inherit the anxiety of trying to foresee if this book is heavier-than or lighter-than etc.
In the end, read isuue No XYZ of magazine WOODEN~shop,~thing, ~bloom, where they certainly show step-by-step how to make a bookstand out of quartersawn something, with no less than twelve parallel narrow bits for eash side: mission style, as in mission impossible, or workoholic like a missionary attitude - piece of cake man, absolutely identical absolutely parallel, and in the end impossible to dust through.
In super simplification of this adventurous path, my first items were parallelogram boxes used for book storage - two of them still around after 43 years!
Best wishes

[DaninVan]

Thanks, Dimitri; long time no see!
I'm heading back to Victoria next week to actually hang the shelves.
We went with 3/8" threaded rod. I had to open up the wall(s) and install horizontal blocking between the studs in order to get enough support, then I used that predrilled 2x4-on-edge jig which I had made using the drill-press, for accuracy,
I then installed T-nuts into the holes in the x-members in the wall and screwed them down. Re-drywalled and left it for them to paint.
West Wind hardwood did a great job of milling and finish sanding the shelves they ordered.
The shelves are all stained and finished waiting for me to drill the holes into the back edge using that same jig, then install them onto the threaded 'pegs' sticking out of the wall.

[Herb Stoops]

I was dreaming about this last night and was thinking that the holes in the selves,"that deep" will have to be super accurate to each other, to line up on those rods, just 1/16" wider/narrower from each other will create a nightmare to line up sliding on the shelf as there is no adjustment.
Just dreaming,
Herb